At last I had chance to test GT86.... Car I hate . I hate it for 200HP and even more for 205 Nm of torque. Also I hate Toyota for their price policy. They sell it here in Europe for $39,000 (base price!!! should be $44,000 for top version) but with the same power as Scion FR-S that is for sale for $23,100 (base price) in the US.

Anyway back to the point. Back to my experience from the last weekend. Now you know I do not like that car so really wanted to see it fall in my eyes . Fortunately I had chance to:

- see drag race between GT86 and Celica GT-S (T23 Sport)
- drive GT86
- "drift" GT86 (drift means to loose grip when cornering for me . I'm not any drifter...)
- talk to other GT, ST Celica drivers and ask about opinion...

...to make as much as unbiased conclusion about GT86.

First what "numbers say". When taking curb weight, power (or torque) and loss between engine and the ground (that is important) for all models of Celica (T20, T23 - all European versions) and GT86, than just converting to percentage value (to easily compare it) you receive some interesting answers. Lets say GT86 is "standard" (100% value) than:

6gen
ST = power 58%, torque 76%
GT = power 80%, torque 85%
GT-Four = >>power 86%>>>>**>>, >>torque 103%>>>>*>>
7gen
GT = power 78%, >>torque 91%>>>>**>>
GT-S = >>power 94%>>>>*>>, torque 87%

>>*highest value
**second highest value>>

From you see above theory say GT-S has no chance to win drag race with GT86 (lower torque means lower ability to start fast enough and almost the same power gives zero chance to catch what GT-S loose with slower acceleration). And reality is exactly as numbers say. I have seen two drag races between GT-S and GT86. Both won by GT86.

Also numbers can help to guess what was experience of other drivers and why in fact just GT-S drivers accepted challenge to race GT86. ST owners were all impressed with GT86. To have suddenly for 40% more power and 25% more torque than they are used to have (especially on rear wheels) knocked them down all . Also GT drivers were not disappointed at all. You can feel those +20% from first moment. No question about this. Also this is reason no one of those wanted to drag race it (there was no point for this).

Numbers also say only at least competitors for GT86 were:

7gen. GT = just slightly lower torque so in case track is short enough and GT86 mess up take off 7gen GT can win. Unfortunately no one tried his luck.
7gen. GT-S = slightly less power in combination with long enough track ...and GT86's messed up take off also gave some chances to win. As I saw not happened. GT86 in both races lead from take off to finish.
6gen. GT-Four = unfortunately none was available around. Any stock GT-Four has higher torque so should lead from the start for 100%. On too long track may loose in the end (thanks to weight and too high loss between engine and wheels). But you never know till you see .

>>NOTE: Some people may say now: "you were there! You have GT-four so you could race GT86!" No, no... all wrong. I have SS-Four... so I could not . OK, no silly excuses now. Racing with GT86 was pointless with my car. It would be like grizzly bear fighting with raccoon bear. Just to compare above percentage values is my car against GT86: power 128%, torque 159%. That means 30% more power on wheels and for 60% better acceleration than GT86.>> >>It would be just about me showing off there...>>

To driving/"drifting" impressions. Since my feelings are "calibrated" to my car result was exactly what I expected. Not enough power, pitiful torque. Take off is effective (when your ass shakes with behind spinning rear wheels it is always effective ). When trying accelerate from 50mph to 70mph it took ages. It is - no kidding - horrible. Any diesel powered van can accelerate faster! But when cornering (and not controlled by electronic) you can feel the edge when car is sliding and when knot. The most fun is balancing on this edge just by gently playing with gas pedal. You do not need more. Just one leg and smile . Handling of this car is stunning. GT-Four just grips and holding the line. No fun. GT86 is different.

Now I need to slightly re-evaluate my opinion about GT86. I do not hate it as a car anymore (or lets say not that much as before). But but I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

End of story .

base price over here is higher than $23,100... FYI.


$24,200 is base, but you have to pay $755 for delivery, processing, and handling.

$24,955.. or just round off that $45 for a tank of gas and say it costs $25,000. Still considerably cheaper here


and yes, the lack of power is not very awe inspiring. That is why you should keep the Celica, so when you want power you can drive it instead!

>

Malpaso we are paying
starting from 35K for the GT spec here
and 40K for the GTS spec

Aus 86 pricing

on top of that the waiting list here is rediculous (18 months wait for the GTS)

You cant really compare pricing between countries, different taxes, laws, rego etc..
Also I think the US is a big market so there is more margin.
Yes, i wish we had pricing like the US too..
Drove the car and Love it.. will get one when the facelift come out

>

I wish we had cars w/ name like Rukus over here.... I would have to buy it on the name alone.

I'll buy one used in a few years and do an STI swap.

yes the car is underpowered, it sucks, but its fun to drive in corners.

nothing a little tuning and options can do.

the celica is also underpowered, but everyone figured out how to turbo the original engine.

i would have expected more, but for 25k//

its a shame you guys pay more in europe and rest of the world.

great review. i've always wanted to know how the gt86 compares to our 6th gens.
hopefully toyota/subaru gets all the bugs sorted out by next year.

>
Thanks for correction. I just took first price I found on the web. Still 25k is GREAT price for this power range. But do not get me wrong. No one plan to sell Celica here . But what I can say for sure is:

If I lived in USA and drove any stock Celica I would buy Scion FR-S for sure.

Because agree with njccmd2002 to the letter...

>

Thanks to RWD it is really fun to drive it and for any ST/GT Celica owner is more power as well. Anyway in Europe there is (IMO) no sense buying it. For example. Do you believe even Mercedes A250 AMG sport is cheaper here than GT86? (UK price is about the same: A250AMG vs GT86). And of course that AMG has more power than GT86... A250 AMG has torque 350Nm. 350! That is for 50 Nm more than stock GT-four... Yes it is FWD so forget about fun but for $40K I expect more than "just fun when cornering".

>
Wow... mate that is insane. That is even worse than in here. You know... If I wanted to buy GT86 I shout take one the same day I tested it. There were three GT86, two for test rides and one immediately for sale for potential buyer.

From price-list I see there is also weigh gain for that GTS (+70kg!!!). Thanks to this I can change numbers...

6gen
ST = power 62%, torque 80%
GT = power 85%, torque 91%
GT-Four = >>power 91%>>>>**>>, >>torque 109%>>>>*>>
7gen
GT = power 83%, >>torque 97%>>>>**>>
GT-S = >>power 100%>>>>*>>, torque 92%

>>*highest value
**second highest value>>

As you see weight is only advantage of this car any fancy equipment (big stereo for example) just devalue it. That is very interesting.

Just for your info I have added aslo link to CZ pricing... it is in CZ (sorry). In short you can find there: (exchange rate is about 20 Kč = 1 USD)

base price:
799 900 Kč for M/T
839 900 Kč for A/T

optional equipment:
30 000 Kč - premium audio
15 000 Kč - sat nav
15 000 Kč - metallic paint
22 500 Kč - pearl paint
8 000 Kč - silicon paint protection layer
14 900 Kč - warranty longer +3 years
5 000 Kč - Paket Race 1 (vinyl stripes bonnet+roof)
2 500 Kč - Paket Race 2 (vinyl stripes sides)
etc... (there are more like "parking assistant", "mud guards" etc... all for additional hundreds of dollars http://www.toyota.cz/cars/new_cars/gt86/index.tmex )

So you can see I'm to kind when saying the price is "just" 39-44k USD in CZ (because when exchange rate drops from 20CZK per 1USD to 19CZK top price with all additional fancy stuff bought can be 50k. No problem).

This post has been edited by malpaso: Sep 25, 2012 - 5:38 AM

I bought it. BOUGHT IT IN USA - and imported over here. and i LOVE it. Love it 10x more then ANY GT-Four. As i said before GT-Four is a boat... boat on water... As FRS is a jetski. Period. GT-four is OK for power - but if we are talking about GT-four - then i would take any GC chasis STi over GT-four ANYTIME.

You can NOT compare GT86 / FRS / BRZ to a GT-four - thats a differnet league car.

Price? well - in EU it is overpriced... but as i imported it from USA - saved round 8K$ So its all good till issues with the Warranty stuff will pop up...

Also - you should not that Base prices starts at 24xxx + TAX! So you get round 27K easily...

And its not even NEAR 7 gen celica... sorry - but 7Gen doesnt even deserve to be called celica IMHO...

>
I agree with this. I feel more like it was a first gen Scion tC.

Very interesting to hear the comparison between the FR-S and GT-Four, and more interesting up hear that there is no comparison.

Why? 7GC still weighed 2,400-2,500 depending on GT or GT-S. TC weighed in at 2,900 with less power than the GT-S. 7GC is a lot closer to the 6GC than it is the TC.

tC to me seems like a 2-door Camry.

>
tC just needs to go on a diet and lose about 600 pounds.

>
First. Unfortunately Lithuania is not Czech Republic mate. You know how much issues I had registering my car. You say I can not compare GT-four and GT86? I say you can not compare importing a car to LT and to CZ. It is different story.

In terms of my experience... I simply compared NUMBERS based on weight, power, torque and loss between engine and ground. I compare it because comparing DRAG RACE! Not drift race, not circuit, not handling, nothing else. Just ability to drive straight and accelerate (the same way I can compare how fast will brick and metal cube fall to the grown from roof). And since I tried both cars in same situations I really can say how I feel driving it. GT86 is desperately slow car and for price sold in CZ not worth having it. And since I have GT-four... I believe "YES, I can". I can compare GT86 with GT-four as user and say:

I would NEVER swap my car for GT86 (even for half price) but definitely bought its Scion clone if I lived in the US (AT200 & ST204 country) because remember how AT200 feels on road. GT86 has more power than US ST/GT, it is more fun to drive and price is fair enough there. That is only message I wanted to share.

note: In terms of 7gen... anyone knows my opinion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBdyf-5nOsQ (but it is not the point)

Not fair to compare old and new though, really. LOTS of used cars over here in the U.S. for under $25,000 that'll blow the doors off the FR-S in a straight line. Really should be compared to its contemporaries.

>
I believe that. There are tons of better, faster and more pretty cars than GT86. And what? Reason why used this comparison are two:

a) Everyone expected when concept launched few years ago we are looking at 8gen Celica. Some people still have feeling they must comparing it with 7gen Celicas (like "is it better than last Toyota's sports car?").
b) We are 6gen Celica forum members = this comparison is relevant for us as for Celica drivers and 6gc enthusiasts (because simply we all are driving Celicas so we know how it feels on the road). I do not care how it is in comparison with Camaro or Mustang.

Can you accept fact I do not make any review of GT86? I just wanted to know if it could suit me better than my current car. I found CLEAR answer. It can not (and can not form any point of view or perspective). Also tried to describe why to make it clear for every AT200/ST204/ST202 driver here that had no chance to compare yet. Your opinion is up to you. You like the GT86 (or it's other clones)? Fine. You love it because of RWD? Great! You enjoy racing or drifting? Good for you... Still I already found my answers. You do not agree with them? That is not my problem...

I hope you (and Romas) got the point what I mean.

I was just saying though, and I get what you're saying. I know if it were me having $25,000 to spend on a car, it sure as Hell wouldn't be the FR-S. I don't know why people are comparing it to the Celica, Celica hasn't been RWD in most of those people's lifetimes...

i can only say this...

drive the scion frs and then talk about it, if you still dont like it after a drive, then ok.

RWD is fun. but its fun light weight. a 400whp 3 ton monster, its not fun, its just loud and heavy...

lol. I will never regret buying the frs. its not fast, its not luxurious, but it is freaking fun to drive.

What car is three tons? Even the heaviest of the muscle cars are under 2 metric tons. Will have to disagree with you, just depends on what you find fun. Each are fun in their own way. I'd have a FR-S for its handling and then something that kicks up pavement when you floor it, just depends on the mood at the moment.

Martin - if you spent week driving GT86 - we could talk then - and you COULD compare cars by then... But after few Km's - its crazy a bit to give opinion.... And if you are only driving in straight line - then you need a dragster then....

I felt in love with this car round after 500miles... First 200 was like hmmm whats so special about it? But later on - you find all the small details about driving, steering, drifting - and theres more then enouth of power to get you from point A to B with enouth of fun and smile.

Later this week - we will have BRZ drive on our local track with profesional driver. it will be REALLY nice to compare time of it to GT-Four and SSIII (Martynas car with ~300hp and Vidmantas SSIII) and see how much difference will be...

>
I fully understand your excitement mate (not just because you bought it ). It meets your needs. I also understand excitement of everyone (all GT/ST drivers) I talked to after test ride "how great car it is". I only wish you respect my option, my priories and expectations plus the way I created it.

- I already wrote local people are 6gen Celica enthusiasts = I tried to approximate my experience to Celicas we all know (not to any other brand/car).
- I have seen drag race between two GT-S and result was clear. Supported by numbers = clean mathematic explanation (just facts) proving it was not just because of "bad driver".
- NOTHING ELSE but drag race can be compared by numbers. Just drag race. That is why comparing JUST DRAG RACE. Not any other activity.
- When I sit into GT86 I just simulated one thing: Driving normal speed (line in any public road) and than suddenly accelerating +20 km per hour (like overtaking other car). The thing I need every day driving my car on the road. Simple thing common for any other car. Nothing special. Result was horrible. Even diesel van can overtake faster.

I do not need drift every day, make donuts with the car everyday or drive on the edge on twisty roads (like on circuit) every day. I want - every day - to overtake car FAST when I need it. That is why just this simple test was enough (in terms of every day used acceleration compared with my car = fat old ST205).

Plus. When thinking about one fiction "chance to swap my car for GT86". No money in advance paid (or got ). Just swap it. I need to count my personal priorities and expectations from a car into consideration and try to match it with ST205 or GT86 (first three are simply mandatory with top priority):

basic condition: I do not have salary to keep two cars = I need to pick just one.

- I like to take my family (that means fit into car more than two people + luggage for three people) and drive thousands of miles with it.
- I like to enjoy high passes (12% elevation if you need example) with loaded car as described below and not end behind RV for miles because not am able to overtake it.
- I want be able to ride with more than one passenger in the car for more than 100miles with at least minimum comfort provided to all (they can keep their both legs for example). Yes I'm talking about ability to sit on rear seats when they are already there available.
- I want keep my car on the road even during winter (ice & snow on road is normal here for many months).
- I like to move occasionally things if needed (for example baby carriage, >>>>250000 cc >>>>vivarium for my python, bike, shopping bags, new TV, four spare tires...)
- I like from time to time to take my car to circuit. Just enjoy fast driving.
- I do not drift. I like when car grips not drifts in corners (so yes I like boring cars).
- I like to keep in the car some "useless" things all the time (1liter of engine oil, extinguisher, some tools for possible emergency repairs, spare washer liquid, umbrella, infant carrier... etc) and not feel bad it is weight in advance that is possibly slowing me down.

In short I want sports car that can be used in normal life. ST205 meets all to the letter. GT86 is not... Damn is not.

I hope you understand what I am talking about. I really believe you are happy with GT86 and you had reason buying it (and that reason was not lower price because of importing it). Just please try to understand there are other points of view comparing the car and not everyone has the same "scale", "angle of vision", "abilities" (call it however) as you do.

This post has been edited by malpaso: Oct 1, 2012 - 11:02 AM

>
This..

Martin - >

You really AINT DROVE it then. Really. Or drove it till 4K rpm in 6 gear... ever heard about Downshift? ... Fun starts at 5500rpm and last till very 7400 easily And once you in next gear - it aint over Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true... (i know that in your GT4 its a DIFERENT story - you dont need to downshift - you need to find some BOOOOOOst ) And once you in next gear - it aint over Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true...

Yes - GT4 is FAST. BUT - take the stock GT4 - and it would be close race between these 2. Stock GT4 and GT86 = GT86 would whop GT4's ass on ANY track - thats period. You are used to 350hp+ car - and THIS IS why it feels 'slow' for you... And to be honest - GT4 is not much more spacier Reading your description - it looks like GT86 is somthing like a Polski Fiat and your GT4 is Cadillac Devile..

About drift / grip - GT86 / FRS - with RIGHT combination tires pulled 1G in cornering test - now go figure... Really - dont JUDGE this car if you aint experienced it. And you picked WRONG car to compare it to... Really If you are trying to WRITE YOUR thoughts WHY YOU DONT NEED GT86 - then name this topic right then

>

No it doesnt. ST205 is 2 door, has a tiny trunk, not comfortible at all and so on - i can go day and night if you want. If you need a SPORTS car that can be used daily - get a STi, a FREAKING STi - it will be a 4 door (so you will be able to put a kid seat in it too!) it will have a NORMAL trunk! and you will be able to put a Roof rack on it also! And it will be atleast 10 times MORE fun to drive then ST205! Try it - and you will see! Dont close your eye to other options - and strap your self to freaking ST205 - cuz its not the worlds number 1 car at all

And YES - GT86 is a sports car for a NORMAL life - exept what you call a NORMAL life? For me NORMAL life - is havinga car that it was designed for - Daily - cheap / realible / low fuel consumption. Weekend - get what you want - cuz its YOUR weekend / free time toy!

I just have a NORMAL family car. By NORMAL i mean NORMAL - wich is economical, diesel (low end torque), spacy (i can carry LOTS OF THINGS at ONE TIME lol - not one thing from your list one time ) and its called Corolla Verso.And i DONT need to RACE / drag race with my family / friends on board... GT86 is my toy to play around, and then im playing - i DONT NEED 3 more people to be in my car Because i enjoy playing alone - and be responsible for my own life GT86 is ment to be LEGO in reall life. You are buing a BASE for a tune-up. Everything else - is just you imagination. It will be super fun car on the snow (not like oversized GT4 pig that all it does - understeers in EVERY corner...). GT86 is a bit histerical with its back end, but with the right setup (shocks / swaybars) it will be super smooth in the corners even in the wet / snow. Cant wait to be honest to try it out in winter....

This post has been edited by doGGy: Oct 1, 2012 - 2:21 PM

ST205 is a liftback, and has LOTS of cargo space for a car of its size. Way more than the FR-S with its trunk. There was a roof rack option for Celicas too.

Wait, answer to your problems:

It's faster and roomier than both. So everyone get along and appreciate each car for what it is and what it isn't.

This post has been edited by Box: Oct 1, 2012 - 3:02 PM

>
>>How you dare to judge me or what I write and can NOT READ IT at all!?>>

You really should ask your self question why you are here. Why you are between 6gc enthusiasts? That is first of all.

Second of all. BEFORE you say something about me, about something I wrote, my way of life... you should READ through it and use more than one brain cell to at least understand it. Start with first article, article that made you start this discussion. I'm really tired to see you twisting thing "I say" or even "never said"...

- Do I write ANYTHING about comparison of stock GT-four and GT86? Anything else but mathematically calculated number for all Celicas in terms of possible drag race? Read through my original article and quote me! Now think what you write ABOUT ME here (how I lie - not saying true - for example)...

- Do I write ANYTHING about wanting change my car for any other car? Complaining I miss something my car do not have? Do I need advice what to do with my life? Now think about why you write in stile "you want? buy! (Verso, STi...)" or comparing our lives (comparing incomparable btw).

- Do I write ANYTHING about GT86 has worse handing than ST205? Look to my first article and quote me. You know what? I will help you and quote my self that part + bolt important parts related to handling.:

>

Now... remember your last article (especially parts when you comment what I should or parts when "discovering" how my driving is used to have boosted car and can not be the same) and think why you had feeling wrote it at all... Reason why? Especially after quotation from my first article:

>

- than last thing is "conclusions". Do I wrote GT86 is bad car, useless, rubbish... and ST205 the top of the world? The best car ever drove? Find it and quote it or remain silent please. I'm really tired or reading about something I did not wrote here. Again I help you to share with opinion I said:

>

That is all in terms GT86 vs stock ST205. I do not have stock ST205, I do not have garage full of other cars. Just this one and answer on question about: "Would you change GT86 for SS-four" is: No, I would not and not even if anyone paid me to do that. Because I have own reasons that has nothing to do with how ST205/GT86 is bad/great. My own reasons. If you try to judge my reasons this topic will be locked (or I erase all my posts - what ever) because I hate when someone who do not know me is trying to judge my private reasons. Is that clear?

note: you think I treat you unjustly about what you say? here is example you take this conversation personal with me not about two cars. You judge me and compare with you. I never did (or even "would do") that:

>

This is clear example you put this to personal level "your opinion is bad my is right". First of all I never wrote I put my family to danger racing with them - why you think I should? More over... I never drag raced. With my car or any other. I do not drag... (guess why I not grabbed chance to drag with GT86 and show her my tails lights) the same as I do not drift. I do not have car for this purpose. I use my as fast "grand touring" car to enjoy trips with my family and enjoying every single advantage it gives to me (advantage what GT86 can not). Now stop. I DID NOT SAY THERE IS NOT ANY OTHER CAR IN THIS PLANET BETTER FOR THIS (Read + think). I do not talk about any other cars. I talk about my car - car I have - and about GT86 in the same situation, Situation so common for my life. Do not try to judge "common situations" in my life in comparison of yours. This article is not about my or your live.

>>In fact only relevant - not personal - thing you wrote here:>>

>

Exactly relevant to my conclusion:
>

>>That is my biggest "issue" with GT86 (nothing else):
For 40k I do not want just LEGO... as LEGO is deserving to have half price tag (to let me spent other half into "imaginations"). >>

Can you accept that opinion Romas?

That leads me to Box...
>
Do have nay idea why I wrote this article? Do I have problems with my car (quote me)? Do I look for replacement for my car (quote me)? Read + think OR ignore. Please. That is only I ask.

Thank you...

To moderators: if you have feeling this discussion turned to too much emotional level and do not fill original purpose do not hesitate and lock it. Only i did is shared with experience to 6gc enthusiasts and received only comparison of my personal preferences against other who disagree with them.

Its damn near impossible to post an opinion based topic and not encounter confrontations with others who differ in thought.

>>this should be locked or cleaned.>>

This post has been edited by Tigawoods: Oct 2, 2012 - 1:23 PM

>
Don't get smart with me. Did I ever say any of those things? No. So you read. I was trying to make the point that both of you are being silly. There's always going to be a better car, for whatever situation. So everyone get the **** along and stop the goddamned bickering.

Leave it alone, everyone. Seriously. If you like the car then great. If you don't - that is cool. Let's not all act like religious fanatics and attempt to indoctrinate each other into our personal beliefs and feelings regarding it.

^^ Agreed. This thread needs to be cleaned. The GT-86/FR-S/BRZ cannot be compared to the ST205. The 205 is a heavy, AWD road-going rally car where the GT-86 is a lightweight street/track car. They are both sports coupes but after that, the similarities completely disappear. Some prefer the way the ST205 feels, others prefer the GT-86. To each their own.