Looks great Brent.


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*Facepalm*

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NEGATIVE lol i havent seen a FWD celica that can run the times civics do down here
Well the fast ones anyway...........

nice build though Sever, its threads that you eastcoast folks do with the 5s that gives me more hope about the 5sfe...

dude there everywhere in my town civics and hatchbacks

your average run of the mill civic's are one thing your done up bubble backs are another...some of those are wicked fast!

congrats brent!

true true

Ok so, some of you know the deal with the tangerine. for all thsoe who dont, i spun a bearing back in april. oil thined out and said f*ck you to my 5s lol. BUT the time has come that i am pulling the engine tuesday and will be gettin her back up and running within the next month. plans for the celica is that i am going to be making it a full show car. go all out, money is no option. you gotta pay to play. as for the motor, i will have plans within the next year to make it a 400+hp 5sfte. anything that needs to be done or can be done, will. i dont need to hear any of that "it cant be done BS". with enough money anything is possible. and obviously i am ready and willing to put the money into it. I plan on bringing new boundries to the 6th gen world and getting the 6gc out there to be heard an known. You never see or hear anything about 6th gens on TV or in the magazines. and well... im going to change that.

This post has been edited by SeverX13: Jun 29, 2009 - 12:53 PM

Great to hear you are going to be tearing back into it again Brent.

400whp on a 5sfte setup is going to be fairly easy, especially since you say money is not an issue, and I know you are going to have some great services available to you at a GREATLY discounted price when you head out to school, so that should help A LOT with your goals.

Basically all you are going to need to achieve 400whp on a 5sfte setup will be:
Forged bottom end
ported and polished head
cams
and a GT3076 (or turbo of equivalent size, but that would be my preference)
AEM FIC for the tuning
800cc injectors
and an aftermarket/custom intake manifold surely wouldn't hurt, but wont be needed to hit your goals
a new clutch
E153 transmission conversion
caged axles so you can run drag radials/slicks at the track for traction

With that list of mods you should have no trouble at all hitting 400+whp around 20psi.

NOBODY should have ever said that the 5sfte wasnt capable of 400+whp, because that simply isnt true. It is expensive, YES. Are there cheaper ways to 400+whp, YES. Should you be discouraged from trying it, NO. Granted that mod list LOOKS rather extensive then the average member here would be willing to do, but that list in no different then what A LOT of Honda's do to make big power on there motors. We just dont venture there with the 5s because we have the 3SGTE swap as a viable option.

And for the 5s guys who are wondering what a build like this would cost......without access to a machine shop, and installing/tuning all the parts yourself.....you are looking at over $10,000

Best of luck to you Brent, cant wait for the updates

the stock ECU wont idle 800cc injectors, you will definetly need a standalone to get those to work.
jim has most of the rest about right tho.
i wouldnt worry so much about porting as much as throat correction on the 5s, and you definetly dont wanna polish the intake side.
forged pistons and 3s rods will work perfectly for your goal, although if money is not an issue a nice set of light pauters would be MINT.
with the headwork i would really suggest 1mm os valves, and springs, retainers and locks so that you could raise the redline to at least 7krpm.

with a larger turbo, your gonna wanna raise the redline so that you will still have a usable powerband, and the higher rev limit will allow you to reach your goal easier.

we all know its possible (jim snodgrass made 500+whp YEARS ago) but it certainly aint cheap.

good luck with the project!

Good luck with it Brent

GRT build I have a question about your paint job though Did you use adhesion promoter on the plastics like the front bumper cause im pretty sure it would have prevented the chips in your paint job not mad dogging you just asking Can anyone back this up

I am positive i will be able to get to 400hp with around 5-6g. granted i get discounts and will be doing the installing myself, cam and i figured id be in the 5-6 grand range. I made i nice list b4 i posted and i think i got most of it all covered . BUT depending on what we find tomorrow when we tear it apart will most likely change the list a bit. the plan is to get it up and running at 10 again. I think i have a boost leak by the BOV so that need fixed as well. Im pretty sure its a rod bearing. i guess well find out tomorrow!

This post has been edited by SeverX13: Jun 29, 2009 - 11:53 AM

Booh for not posting that the motor died in April. Part of the thing that I love about peoples build threads is that you get to hear the good and the bad, and can learn from both.

Anyway, whats the future parts list look like so far? Who's doing the machine work on the motor?

best of luck!....didnt even know she quit on yea...you and cam will get it up to 400whp with no issues i am sure

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lol my b my b. the parts list is basically waht jim and manny were saying, but i am goin to get the e-manage. and witth be keeping the t3/t4. push the limits of that. as for machineing, i will be doing it. i should have that class session sometime next spring and will able do do the machineing myself with the help of the teacher (who owns his own machine shop) and get a grade for it lol.

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I stated in the parts list the AEM FIC, and with that unit, the stock ECU should have no problem controlling 800cc injectors (or any injector for that matter) as the FIC does NOT pull Airflow, it pulls pulse width. You are also capable or COMPLETELY closing an injector or opening it 100% allowing you to have FULL control on the injectors without affecting the stock ECU.




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Brent, you wont be able to control 800cc injectors, or any injector required for 400whp with the Emanage.

I am SURE you can pull this project off for 6000$ (In fact WELL under that) because the cost of all the machining will be cheap/free, and you will sticking with the turbo you have on there now. The estimated cost was for someone who was starting with a stock 5SFE, looking for 400+whp

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emanage ultimate does the same thing jim.
problem with all of these units is that you are still just trying to fool the stock computer into thinking something else is going on. at some point, it becomes less and less effective and you need to get a real stand alone ecu.

i highly doubt youll hit 400hp on that ebay t3/t4.

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the problem is this jim.
the ECU already has a set opening time programed into the stock ECU. for the stock injectors.
all you are doing is manipulating that, with the FIC, after the fact.
you will only be able to pull out so much opening time, (i know, the emanage ultimate controls the injectors the same way as the FIC) we already pull ~25-30% of that opening time with 460cc injectors to get it to idle, how much more are you gonna have to remove to get 800CC's to idle? you end up with same issues that the 3s guys have trying to idle the super large injectors. the opening times are so small but still inject so much fuel that the car chokes on it.

I am glad you have not giving up on the car Brent I honestly thought after u got the new car that you would lose interest and I am glad you didn't! You couldnt anyway since you got that oo so cool tattoo

All in good time I am sure you will have the beast that you have always wanted and its going to be great seeing you the next time after all these classes you are taking its gonna be real cool seeing how much more knowledge you will have towards the celica and all cars in general!

I and everyone who has met you were so proud for how much you accomplished in such little time and a younger age...not that much younger then me but as a senior in highschool it was amazing!!

If you were able to do all that by the end of your senior year I can't wait to see what you will have done by the end of college!

Maybe one day you can help me with making my car even better haha!

I wish you and Cam the best of luck and hope to see you guys soon enough!

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I copied this from Greddy's website

Basic functions will allow the tuner to slightly alter factory injector duty-cycle (± 20% at 5 preset RPM points) by intercepting and altering airflow or MAP sensor signals.

Base upon this statement, The AME FIC and the EManage Ultimiate do NOT do the same thing, not even close. I dont have much experience with the Emanage, nor I have done much research on it, I am solely running off this statement.....I will wait for Manny to come in hear and correct any misinformation on the Emanage that I may be concluding.

So, it seems as tho you can only alter the factory Duty-cycle +/- 20% at 5 preset RPM points, and it intercepts then alters the airflow and map sensor signal GOING INTO THE ECU (and this may be where I have it very wrong) If it in fact changes these values going INTO the ECU (which based upon this statement seems as tho it does) then this is in fact TRICKING the ECU, where as the AEM FIC does NOT do this

The AEM FIC can alter the factory injector Duty-cycle +/- 100% at EVERY point of the 21x17mapping graph (357 points, as apposed to 5 points that the Emanage allows). And it does all of this AFTER the ECU, so there is no "tricking" the stock ECU involved. The ECU gets all of the readings that it needs from the facotry setup without any interference, then after the ECU "chooses and fires" the appropriate pulse-width firing "code"/lenth, it gets sent into the AEM FIC for correction.....where it can be modified +/- 100% to accommodate your needs. And there is no "return" on the factory injector to show the stock ECU that a different pulse width "code"/lenth was "fired."


Without getting into to big of a debate here, I think the ebay T3/T4 COULD hit 400+whp with the list of mods I have mentioned. Manny made 307whp at 20psi on the CT27 on a stock setup with cams, which is obviously outside its maximum efficiency Islands. Shannon made 240whp at 11psi on a stock 5S. So factor out the 110whp the 5s makes stock, and shannon made 130 additional whp with 11pounds of boost. That is almost 12whp per every 1 pound of boost added. When shannon turned up the boost to 16.5psi and made 285whp that WHP to PSI number diminished to 8whp per every 1 psi, and we came to the conclusion that the cams were really starting to hold as back at this point.

So facotor in 12whp at 20psi (240whp), plus the 110whp the facotry motor produces, plus 50+whp for cams, ported and polished head, valve work, raised rev limit, and larger pistons....that alone is enough power for 400+whp, and that is only at 20psi.

As for the reliability of the Ebay 57trim at these boost level, I cant comment. People are quick to say the ebay T3 will not make power, it will break, exploded, kill your motor, etc. And this is not true by anymeans. There are 2 of 2 members here running the ebay T3 making good power and not having any motor failure due to the turbo. So I am not one to say that it wont be reliable at these boost levels as Shannon hasnt had any problems at 17psi. Brent will have to let us know on that one

^ you are thinking about the emanage blue. the emange ultimate that manny has can directly control the injectors.

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Ok, maybe you will clear this up a bit more once you read my post I made while you respond....But the Stock System does not have a "return system" for the amount of time the injector is left opened or closed (as far as I know anyways). So with the Ability of the AEM FIC to control the amount of time the injector is left open of closed 100% after the ECU, I dont see why controlling 800cc injectors would be a problem. You could literally close the injector if you wanted, needed to.

What is the stock Injector size, and would You or Art happen to know what percentage of duty cycle it is at at idle? And yes, there is a point of which the injector can be too big, I agree. If anyone knows the answer to this question it is very simple math to know what the largest injector you could control with the AEM FIC would be.

And could you cover from your experiences with the emanage, this statement for me:
"Basic functions will allow the tuner to slightly alter factory injector duty-cycle (± 20% at 5 preset RPM points) by intercepting and altering airflow or MAP sensor signals."

thats for the emanage blue, jim, not the ultimate.
2 very diffrent things.
the blue will only control airflow, by altering the airflow signal, (the same way the SAFC does, just with more than a lo/hi map)
the ultimate controls the injectors directly, after the ecu, exactly the same way the FIC does (that was the reason i bought the ultimate over the regluar emanage.)
from the greddy manual:
Injection Adjustment Map



Fuel trimming in the previous system was achieved by adjusting the ''Airflow Adjustment Map'' which could also affectthe ignition timing. The improved ''Injection Adjustment Map'' is used to trim and add fuel directly by controlling the injector signal, therefor it will not affect the ignition timing at all.(However with an internal jumper setting change, the system is still able to trim the fuel by adjusting the airflow signal like the previous unit)


::edit:: it also does that on a 16X16 map.


i defiently think the ebay turbo could make 400whp, it'd just take more boost.

but that dont matter in this topic, from what jim posted it seems like he's going with a GT based turbo, which will do it with faster spool more than likely, which would be SWEEEEET.

Good to know about the difference of the Ultimate vs the Blue. So you have the abilty to close an injector with the Ultimate?

As for the turbo, No Brent made mention in an earlier thread that he is sticking with the T3 setup.

Also, Can you control the injectors +/- 100% at every rpm point of the 16x16, or is it still 5 points?

Fight fight fight!

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NO FIGHTING, this is probably some of the best/most informative information we have had on here in MONTHS!

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thats sad.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jun 29, 2009 - 5:09 PM

your right, but its true

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keep in mind that ALL piggy backs are not designed to "control" the injector. they are designed to "correct" it. This has the benefit of letting you keep your stock fuel curve and make adjustments, but is also where you can run into problems when you install injectors that are too big.

there is a time for an safc, a time for a piggy back, and a time for a full stand alone. id say a 400hp 5sfe would qualify for the third option.

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well, yea, untill the minimum opening time.

ahh i thought he was gonna go with the gt3076 like you had posted.


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no, its 16X16, meaning 16rpm set points, and 16 load setpoints. total of 256. and it interpolates between them (just like the FIC or standalones do, standalones just have more setpoints)
the emange blue only had 5 setpoint for load, basicly.