I will be getting a redtop Beams 3SGE in my Celica around mid-May. But I'm curious as to which engine really is better. I mean, if the ST205 was the exact same engine except no turbo, how much HP would it put out approximately, compared to the already NA Beams. I think Beams puts out 200HP(please correct me, if wrong...)? Thanks. I guess maybe what I'm trying to figrue out is if you stuck some low-comp pistons in the Beams and some other minor mods and the same CT26 or CT20 turbo, would it have more horses and be more powerful than the factory ST205?

Also, I'm real stuck between the Beams and 4AGE blacktop 6 speed. What would you guys choose? and why? Price isn't an issue and both engines will be left stock, maybe minor mods(Intake, Headers, Exhaust)...

Some advantages I see with the blacktop is that since my car is a coupe, I already have a tiny bit of weight advantage over a hatchback and the blacktop being a 1.6L will keep me at lower weight and it has 6speeds.

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ya but the 6spd is a rwd tranny so it wont work

There is NO competion between the two motors. C'mon... completely different classes. There's nearly a 40hp difference between the two. Obviously the Beams is the better motor. Also... you CANNOT compare the Beams to the 3SGTE. Let's say you put low comp pistons in the Beams and turbo charge it... it will NOT make significantly more power than a regular 3SGTE because it's basically the same thing. One of the MAJOR reasons the beams makes as much power as it does is due to its high compression. If you negate that... it's not a 200hp motor anymore.

i'd go with the beams. its newer and faster (right?). and what are you gonna do with 6 gears anyways. but if money's not an issue, you can do whatever you want.

i thought you were gonna turbo? what happened?

I would've to say beams.
They look beautiful in the engine bay.
Definiately one of the best n/a motor you can put in a 6gc.

i would say 3sge beams
thats my dream engine, NA engine is my style

3sge beam on ebay

celicaZR showed me that, i drool over it for a while

If only i had the money

NaKeD

my brother has a corolla 1998 with the black top 6speed and i have the ss-iii with the beams engine so i know VERY good both of the engines... 6peed is fun but in the 3-4 gear the power betwin the beams and the 4a-ge is HUGE!!!! i've onced raced my brother car.. i was driving the corolla 4a-ge and a friend of mine my car and the difference was big... my car won (beams) both cars were stock at the time...

This post has been edited by maikl: Mar 2, 2006 - 11:41 AM

i say beams cuz they look prettier

and cuz its faster stock form

bboy

i love beams, but i'd go black top, its like 1/3 of the price for the beams:S

why isn't the 4age and other motors covered in the info-section. just wondering, cuz it only talks about the 3sfe, 3sge and 3sgte motors...aside from the USDM ones.

i was sleepy when i read this. I thought your comparing the alteza 3s vs the celica 3s.


why would you want a 4a? its a smaller engine.

i dont see why we need to discuss this? the choice is blatant.

its like asking any car enthusis. Do you want a 4 banger or a v6?

4AGE is just as good a motor though. You can't possibly base which motor is "better" by only looking at displacement and peak power output.

4AGE's are possibly one of the most well engineered, performance designed 4 cylinder N/A motors ever built by Toyota. I would love to have a BEAMS, but I really think that for the money the 4AGE would be a better choice. Its significantly cheaper and you can get your hands on a ton of parts for 4AGE motors of any type these days.

for the money the 3sge cost you can get a 3sgte front clip, that way you can have all the parts you need for your swap ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-3SGTE-S...1QQcmdZViewItem

you should really say in the pole if they're feasible. i believe there's only one swapped beams celica in north america so not much references and literature. hope you're good with cars or you have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas

>Both swaps are very feasible... i'm not too good with cars but i do have an amazing mechanic that knows toyotas...Dr. Tweak.

>I think ure confusing the blacktop 4age with the blacktop beams... very different>i was. i still have all the parts but i got in an unexpected debt and i figured im better off getting a new engine, so i figured, why not get a new engine that's better than the 7a? eventually ill go turbo with whichever engine i go with. that TRD blacktop 4agte looks real nice.

your not gonna wanna turbo the beams..

i didnt think i had to get so specific. of course, id be putting low comp pistons and little mods here and there to make the turbo work. i wouldnt turbo a 11:1 compression motor... c'mon man.lol.

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u took him from me, damn you. haha

A beam tottaly owns the 4age in the 1/4 mile.
C'mon if your racing a beams and a 4age in a celica, the 4age is gonna lose its only a 1.6 with 6 spd (165hp). Your never gonna go fast enough to use that 6th gear before the finish line.

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by lowering the compression then turbo charging it you just made a really expensive 3sgte with a pretty red top

This post has been edited by BLACKcelicaGT: Mar 13, 2006 - 2:26 AM

I know I'm digging up an old thread here, but would the redtop 3s-ge beams head not have better flow characteristics than a silvertop 3s-ge head? and what about changing the vvt-i changeover point to be at the point of positive boost....

Just in querying in response to claims that turboing a red top would not give u better power than starting with a 3s-gte itself... What I have in mind is the update to the 1jz-gte engine in the JDM Toyota Soarer (Aka Lexus SC300 to you guys) in 1996 where the engine went from IL6 2500cc twin turbo to IL6 2500cc single turbo VVT-i, the hp figure remained 276hp but the torque figures looked a hell of alot better; 378Nm @ 2400RPM for VVT-i and 363Nm @ 4800RPM for the older twin turbo (numbers from from wikipedia).. Thoughts anyone?

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Reviving a very old thread... heh

First off, I should correct your statement "silvertop 3s-ge". I'm going to assume you're talking about the silvertop 4age. In which case, the silvertop 4age, although it does have 3 intake valves, the actual valve surface is only marginally larger than a standard 16v 4age. I don't think it has better flow characteristics than a Beams redtop 3sge, given the beams head makes near 200hp at the same revolutions as the silvertop 20V. The difference is, the 4A block is much better designed to rev, whereas the 3S block is not, yet the 3SGE still matches the 4AGE silvertop in terms of hp per liter. Not to mention the 20V 4ag's have a much better "top-end" intake set-up...

As far as VVTi goes, I think you are confused about the function of VVTi. The purpose of VVTi is to improve throttle response, which is dictated by the torque curve. In terms of raw horsepower, VVTi is negated by the fact it is variable and computer controlled. It does not work, as you mention, like VTEC or VVT where you can change the crossover point. VVTi is always engaging (for the most part) and works based on throttle position, engine speed, etc. It's not a switchover where you would notice power gains. By the time the engine speeds up enough to make maximum power, VVTi is already negated because its function is to provide torque in the mid-range. Basically, it drastically doesn't affect horsepower. Race motors (high horsepower motors) tend to eliminate computer controlled cam timing because, although it can work to improve mid-range torque and overall useability, it's not designed to maximize power, hence you would probably end up with relatively the same amount of power as a normal 3SGTE, because that's essentially wht you'd have built, VVTi or not. So why the trouble?

There is a BEAMS motor that they call the "silver/grey" top. It actually has a black head but only has single vvti unlike the black top.

Sorry Kwanza but step back a minute, I'm referring to my 3rd gen 3S-GE (Yes I know my own motor) as a silvertop head which would be the same head as used in a 3rd gen 3S-GTE. I never made any mention to 4A-GE and I'm well aware that a 4A-GE head would never fit on a 3S motor and why would you ever bother is beyond me.

Now back to the point at hand... 3rd gen head vs 4th gen head for 3S-GTE, I'm talking about torque, since in the top range, displacement is displacement, peak hp is peak hp if its still 2 litres same boost same compression. Purely the benefit of VVT-i for low end rpm response with a turbocharged application is what I'm trying to get at like the comparison I made with the 1jz going from twin turbo to single turbo vvt-i.

And yeah, VVT-i does have a changeover point, in a blacktop 4a-ge levin/trueno its at 4500rpm or 55kph in 2nd gear.

And yeah, I'm sure it's just as controllable as the way I've been able to control the RPM point of ACIS changeover in my 3rd gen 3S-GE (what I call silvertop).

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This topic was originally about the 4AGE 20V and a Beams 3SGE. When you say "silvertop" in a topic dealing 20V's... how many people are gonna know what you're talking about? And who calls the 3SGE "silvetop" anyway? Wouldn't all engines technically be "silvertops"? heh...

Anyway... yeah... I made no mention of any head swapping either, simply saying there is no comparison between the two ("silvertop" referring to 4AGE... not 3sge). As far as a turbo BEAMS goes... why? I'm not going to say VVTi can't help, because if it's tuned for FI, it surely will, but in this case... why? Why spend the extra thousands of dollars for VVTi when you can spend a few hundred for adjustable cam gears that do the same thing, arguably better in a build for the top numbers? Also, VVTi cannot be controlled to the degree ACIS can. ACIS (older versions anyway) are mechanical so they can be controlled. VVTi is electronic and built into the computer. It cannot be easily controlled, nor can it be tuned without a complete retune of the computer. Specifically, the "i" part of VVTi is its intelligence. There are no set parameters in terms of settings.

As for the 20V's (4AGs)... those are VVT, the predecessor to VVTi and it is different. There is a changeover point, but it also doesn't do the same stuff VVTi does. VVTi can do varying degrees of adjustments based on various inputs, whereas VVT only advances/retards a few degrees or so based on engine speed.

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That's specifically a "greytop"... Never heard of anything called a silvertop besides the 4AGE 20V...

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Oct 31, 2008 - 6:24 PM

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If VVT-i is electronic then I'd assume it has an actuator that takes a 12v signal for engage and 0v for disengaged yeah?

Theres only one VVT-i that I know (never owned or driven any other vvt-i), its in my friends blacktop 4a-ge trueno (jdm stuff) because he goes crazy with foot-tech, and when I gave it a drive I punched 2nd gear from 3000 to 8000 to see what its low speed pickup was like and the only changeover Ive ever noticed is at 4500, not like a randomly seeking might be here might be there like ACIS, the whole reason why I made my own ACIS controller is because it would get stuck on/off inappropriately...

just throwing in my 2cents
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just throwing in my 2cents
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what like this?

or even 3S-GZE??



BUT both are fine motors 4A-GE's & 3S-GE's

This post has been edited by Rusty: Oct 31, 2008 - 11:18 PM

what about 2zz-ge, top motor, vvtl-i...lift is awsome.
dont count it out, 180 hp, 1.8 litre, lighter then both 4a and 3s.