3SGE Beams VS 4AGE Blacktop 6SPD - 6G Celicas Forums

Rusty

#31

oh yea I love the lift on that,imagine increasing the displacment to a 2.0L

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delusionz

#32

Just had crazy ideas about higher peak torque levels from 2000 instead of 3000 or 4000 or even 5800, for the most part, our Celicas are road cars, and 2000 - 4000 RPM is probably where we spend most of the time driving.

Mike W1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOURGT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC269awhp / 273ft-lbs

WH95TE

#33

Jason, where are you? lol

JoKeRkId613

#34

>

QUOTE (WH95TE @ Nov 2, 2008 - 7:30 PM)

>Jason, where are you? lol

damn, this thread is ooold! lol. whats up?

Shigexile

#35

i would choose the 3sge because my car is a gt and share the same mounts. Plus, the engine is so beautiful looking and RARE!

PROJECT 6TH GEN<FS: Things up for grabs><Progress>

soulshadow

#36

If money was not an issue, I'd find a way to make that Beams a 6SPD.

mr220v

#37

Ok, since I own both motors, I have to say the beams 3sge will kick the crap out of a blacktop 4age. For that matter a 2nd or 3rd gen 3sge will be the faster motor.

I have a beams 3sge in a mk2 mr2, and a blacktop 20v in my mk1 mr2. My beams mk2 is faster than my 20v mk1 despite being heavier.

This post has been edited by mr220v: Feb 4, 2009 - 4:05 PM

Junior

#38

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

silver6gc

#39

>

QUOTE

>Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

Trust me, I do this every day

Junior

#40

>

QUOTE (silver6gc @ Feb 4, 2009 - 9:58 PM)

>>

QUOTE

>Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

You need to check yourself and not be so rude. Do yourself a favour and read up on cam overlap. Variable Valve Timing increases the amount of cam overlap. Reduce this overlap by removing variable valve timing and you'll see power gains in turbo applications. The supra is turbo charged and has VVT-i, but like you said it is to replace the EGR system to get better emissions. This doesn't mean that cars come from the factory tuned to the best of their capabilities. The supra would see better power production if it didn't have VVT-i or and EGR system.

delusionz

#41

>

QUOTE (Junior @ Feb 7, 2009 - 1:30 PM)

>>

QUOTE (silver6gc @ Feb 4, 2009 - 9:58 PM)

>>

QUOTE

>Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

You need to check yourself and not be so rude. Do yourself a favour and read up on cam overlap. Variable Valve Timing increases the amount of cam overlap. Reduce this overlap by removing variable valve timing and you'll see power gains in turbo applications. The supra is turbo charged and has VVT-i, but like you said it is to replace the EGR system to get better emissions. This doesn't mean that cars come from the factory tuned to the best of their capabilities. The supra would see better power production if it didn't have VVT-i or and EGR system.

I agree with Silver6gc, Take this for example, the 1JZ-GTE lost Twin turbos in favor of a larger single huffer.... This alone would dictate a huge loss in low end torque yet the addition of VVT-i and the .5 increase in static compression along with other adjustments have led to a higher torque level at 2000 than the old peak torque level at 5000. I would say VVT-i is a very good fix for low end response, turbo or non turbo.

Mike W1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOURGT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC269awhp / 273ft-lbs

Rusty

#42

just want to add my 2c's in here

MIVEC (Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing Electronic Control system)

>

QUOTE

>Can you believe that its been 16 years since the 4G63 first roared to life? But the legendary 2 L turbo with its throaty snarl and linear power curve has been replaced by the 4B11. Just like the 4G63 the 4B11 is a 2 L turbocharged and intercooled weapon. In fact, the architecture of the two motors is pretty much the same. However, the 4B11 T/C has 217kw and produced more torque that the 4G63 at all engine speeds, peaking at 366nm at 3500 rpm.

The 4B11 is also 12kg lighter, thanks mainly to a cast aluminium block. The 4G63 used cast iron. During the casting processes, Mitsubishi has also been able to reinforce the block to make it stronger. Inside is all business. A cross-drilled steel crank rotates in 4 bolt main bearing caps, and forged rods all help prepare the motor for buckets of boost. The high strength gravity cast aluminium pistons are now fully floating compared to the semi floating in the 4G63. To reduce friction loss and increase reliability compression is now up from 8.8 to 9.0.

The new aluminium head is also a different kettle of fish. It uses a direct acting valve train to replace the roller rocker configuration which further reduces weight because there are fewer moving parts. And if thats not enought the MIVEC consistently variable valve timing system now works on the exhaust ports as well as the intake ports. This means more power, higher fuel efficiency and lower emissions.

This post has been edited by Rusty: Feb 6, 2009 - 10:26 PM

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Ronan

#43

Ive had both the 20v blacktop in my Levin and the Beams in my SS-III. The Beams is a better base for building power. To get a blacktop (better then the silvertop IMO) to even the same power as a standard Beams would be VERY expensive. Youd be much better off putting that money into the Beams.

But that doesnt make the 4A-GE 20v blacktop any less of a great engine. 8k rpm plus 6 speed gear box is ALOT of fun to drive. High revs plus short gears always puts a smile on my face. The 3S-GE Beams only revs to 7k and has 5 LONG gears, too long in my opinion. Having such long gears is a problem when all your power is literally at the redline.

My 20v Blacktop:

http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoAlbumId=4048222346

My Beams:

Rusty

#44

>

QUOTE

>The Beams is a better base for building power

to a point, they don't make VVTi 3SGE cams anymore (and if you do most likly they are for inoperative VVTI, also a part to disable VVT-I a plug is nolonger available) if you did the same work on both 3SGE(3rdgen) & 3SGE(BEAMS) you get the same power. (cams, compression, quad throttlebodies)
although the price for the 3SGE quad throttlebodies is about $2000(unknown currency)

the best thing you could do is have a very light car with either of these engines tuned. it will fly!!

ST202 SS-II CELICA threadNew Zealand members check inSticky thread's: How to contribute and troubleshoot.

BonzaiCelica

#45

So some of you guys were saying that 4age blacktop with 6spd is not possible in a celica? but looking on wikipedia i found this
list of C transmissions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission
and modified toyota levin specs on engine and gear ratios: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/804063

i also saw that Carina GT came with exact transmission as corolla levin came with. 5spd C52 and 6spd C160.
so does that mean it is feasible. i was also looking on ebay and i searched 4age blacktop. some had 6spd and others 5spd.

i know the corolla trueno has 6spd blacktops in them. but isn't that same transmission used in the levin and carina gt??

btw what fuel octane does blacktop and redtop use. i believe its a minimum of 93 octane for both. could be wrong i think i saw blacktop saying it required 100 octane

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Apr 9, 2009 - 12:50 AM

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Rusty

#46

I've heard that Japan does have very high octane gas over there (100+), we have 91(lowest) 95 & 98 at the pump. so it must run ok

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BonzaiCelica

#47

hmm ok wow thats pretty high. in california the highest we get is 91. due to emissions im guessing. other states in U.S. i believe run up to 95.

so can anybody answer my question?

edit: haha just looking back at my post and i used the word feasible without even knowing it until now

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Apr 9, 2009 - 2:27 AM

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azian_advanced

#48

you don't need 100 octane or whatever japan offers... just use premium 91 and up. the higher the better for high compression engines to prevent detonation. the lower ron rating will be compensated by the ecu by making the necessary adjustments to make it run properly.

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DEATH

#49

>

QUOTE (azian_advanced @ Apr 9, 2009 - 7:48 AM)

>you don't need 100 octane or whatever japan offers... just use premium 91 and up. the higher the better for high compression engines to prevent detonation. the lower ron rating will be compensated by the ecu by making the necessary adjustments to make it run properly.

What he's refering to here is we use a different method to calculate octane here in the US so where they may have 100-104 overseas that would be equal to a lower rating here in the states. Meaning our 93 octane is not equal to their 93 - it would actually be higher octane. Not sure what the specific conversion factors are - I'm sur eyou can google it online.
Long story short - Our 93 octane is perfectly fine for both of these motors and also the 3S-GTE engines which also require higher octane fuel. I use 93 in my 3S-GTE with every single tank.
Hope this helps

ENGINE: '93 RC 3S-GTE/WRC CT-20b [18-20PSI]PERF: TRD/HKS/ARP/NGK/MSD/ACT/Blitz/STRI/APEX'i/TwosRus/GReddy/Magnaflo/KOYOSUSP: Tein/Bilstein/SusTech/INT: SS-III SEATS/Toyota Hyper SportsEXT: WRC/TRD/404QUOTE (lagos @ Aug 25, 2010 - 10:13 AM)Its a safety feature so that people like you don't end up killing themselves or everyone around them.Slow down Paul Walker.6GC Chat - Go there: [url="http://www.griffgirl.com/forum/chat/index.php[/url]

BonzaiCelica

#50

hmm i believe i understand how it works. looked it up on google like u said and found this http://www.answers.com/topic/octane-rating-1

quote from link: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, is 9192 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "unleaded", equivalent to 9091 US (R+M)/2, and some even deliver 98 (RON), 100 (RON), or 102 (RON).

so if i were to go to fontona raceway. i heard that they have racing fuel up to 130. that will obviously work better on the blacktop n beams right. or is it not really necessary. and death, ur saying you guys have 93 octane over there when CA has 91 t highest. emissions have anything to do with it.

also thinking about honda's vtec usdm engine's vs the jdm engines. for instance the b18c engine from 94-96 gsr integra has 180hp in japan of 10.6 compression and 170hp of 10.1 compression in us with .
in japan they use 104 and here the most we can use is 91. same thing right.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Apr 9, 2009 - 3:32 PM

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Rusty

#51

and to add to my previous comment all our fuel is unleaded, but you can buy lead addative for older cars.

>

QUOTE

>so if i were to go to fontona raceway. i heard that they have racing fuel up to 130. that will obviously work better on the blacktop n beams right. or is it not really necessary.

if want to melt your pistons?
higher octane fuel doesn't add horsepower it just means you can run higher boost or compression safely

ST202 SS-II CELICA threadNew Zealand members check inSticky thread's: How to contribute and troubleshoot.

Ryouxrs

#52

>

QUOTE (Cuts_the_Pilot @ Nov 1, 2008 - 1:42 AM)

>what about 2zz-ge, top motor, vvtl-i...lift is awsome.
dont count it out, 180 hp, 1.8 litre, lighter then both 4a and 3s.

X2!!!! i miss my 2zz, that motor kicked ass, almost 300 hp. to the wheels with just a turbo kit with 8psi and water injection, u could hit lift and 8350 rpm all day long, and not hurt it. but just to add anouther question... can a black tops 6spd be put into a 7a celica? are the bellhousings close enough? or is this just anouther wet dream? lmao

Lift Addict!! ^_^----------------------

DEATH

#53

>

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Apr 9, 2009 - 3:00 PM)

>death, ur saying you guys have 93 octane over there when CA has 91 t highest. emissions have anything to do with it.

Not sure - Cali's just gay - they can't even mod their sh*t over there

>

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Apr 9, 2009 - 3:00 PM)

>also thinking about honda's vtec usdm engine's vs the jdm engines. for instance the b18c engine from 94-96 gsr integra has 180hp in japan of 10.6 compression and 170hp of 10.1 compression in us with .
in japan they use 104 and here the most we can use is 91. same thing right.

Same here as on my RC ECU - more agressive tune to take advantage of the higher octane fuel.
If I take my car to the track here and get US 104octane race fuel it'll wake up even more

This post has been edited by DEATH: Apr 10, 2009 - 10:36 PM

ENGINE: '93 RC 3S-GTE/WRC CT-20b [18-20PSI]PERF: TRD/HKS/ARP/NGK/MSD/ACT/Blitz/STRI/APEX'i/TwosRus/GReddy/Magnaflo/KOYOSUSP: Tein/Bilstein/SusTech/INT: SS-III SEATS/Toyota Hyper SportsEXT: WRC/TRD/404QUOTE (lagos @ Aug 25, 2010 - 10:13 AM)Its a safety feature so that people like you don't end up killing themselves or everyone around them.Slow down Paul Walker.6GC Chat - Go there: [url="http://www.griffgirl.com/forum/chat/index.php[/url]

DEATH

#54

>

QUOTE (Ryouxrs @ Apr 10, 2009 - 9:37 PM)

>but just to add anouther question... can a black tops 6spd be put into a 7a celica? are the bellhousings close enough? or is this just anouther wet dream? lmao

Black top what? BEAMS or 4A-GE? There is a blacktop version of both.
The BEAMS can be done but it would be a lot of work and the IM would have to be custom or perhaps [but IDK] the redtop IM would work.
The BT 4A-GE can easily be swapped into an ST along with the Levin FWD 6Speed tranny

ENGINE: '93 RC 3S-GTE/WRC CT-20b [18-20PSI]PERF: TRD/HKS/ARP/NGK/MSD/ACT/Blitz/STRI/APEX'i/TwosRus/GReddy/Magnaflo/KOYOSUSP: Tein/Bilstein/SusTech/INT: SS-III SEATS/Toyota Hyper SportsEXT: WRC/TRD/404QUOTE (lagos @ Aug 25, 2010 - 10:13 AM)Its a safety feature so that people like you don't end up killing themselves or everyone around them.Slow down Paul Walker.6GC Chat - Go there: [url="http://www.griffgirl.com/forum/chat/index.php[/url]

Dr_Tweak

#55

>

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Apr 9, 2009 - 1:36 AM)

>So some of you guys were saying that 4age blacktop with 6spd is not possible in a celica? but looking on wikipedia i found this
list of C transmissions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission
and modified toyota levin specs on engine and gear ratios: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/804063

i also saw that Carina GT came with exact transmission as corolla levin came with. 5spd C52 and 6spd C160.
so does that mean it is feasible. i was also looking on ebay and i searched 4age blacktop. some had 6spd and others 5spd.

i know the corolla trueno has 6spd blacktops in them. but isn't that same transmission used in the levin and carina gt??

btw what fuel octane does blacktop and redtop use. i believe its a minimum of 93 octane for both. could be wrong i think i saw blacktop saying it required 100 octane

The 4AGE Blacktop is available with a 6-speed FRONT WHEEL DRIVE transmission. Yes, you can swap this into the 6th gen since it is FWD.

The 3SGE BEAMS Blacktop comes with a 6-speed REAR WHEEL DRIVE transmission. You cannot swap this into a 6th gen (generally speaking).

I think that's where the confusion is coming from, there are two "Blacktop" engines. Hope that helps

-Doc

-Dr Tweak, 6GC's resident engine swap wiring expert extraordinaireClick here to see my swapsdrtweak@phoenixtuning.com

Ryouxrs

#56

>

QUOTE (Dr_Tweak @ Apr 11, 2009 - 10:27 AM)

>>

QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Apr 9, 2009 - 1:36 AM)

>So some of you guys were saying that 4age blacktop with 6spd is not possible in a celica? but looking on wikipedia i found this
list of C transmissions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission
and modified toyota levin specs on engine and gear ratios: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/804063

i also saw that Carina GT came with exact transmission as corolla levin came with. 5spd C52 and 6spd C160.
so does that mean it is feasible. i was also looking on ebay and i searched 4age blacktop. some had 6spd and others 5spd.

i know the corolla trueno has 6spd blacktops in them. but isn't that same transmission used in the levin and carina gt??

btw what fuel octane does blacktop and redtop use. i believe its a minimum of 93 octane for both. could be wrong i think i saw blacktop saying it required 100 octane

The 4AGE Blacktop is available with a 6-speed FRONT WHEEL DRIVE transmission. Yes, you can swap this into the 6th gen since it is FWD.

The 3SGE BEAMS Blacktop comes with a 6-speed REAR WHEEL DRIVE transmission. You cannot swap this into a 6th gen (generally speaking).

I think that's where the confusion is coming from, there are two "Blacktop" engines. Hope that helps

-Doc

thanks guys, now the issue is findind a 4a 6speed tranny and figuring out how the heck to bolt it up to my 7a. lmao

Lift Addict!! ^_^----------------------

BonzaiCelica

#57

alright thx for the reply tweak. But being that it is 6 spd. i already know for a 5spd 4age i would just need to send wiring harness to you, get custom a/c and p/s. but since a 6spd would be going into the st celica. what else is needed. shifter cables. is 6spd tranny same size as 5spd tranny?? im thinking about going this way since it would be cheaper than going with a 3sge motor. and plus it wud be a 6spd celi

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BonzaiCelica

#58

wow another video of toyota failing with the 2zz-ge, and not having the superstrut suspension on the sport m celica version. the race is in the last 10 min of this 56 min video enjoy. be patient it takes a while to load.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTYzMTA1NjA0.html

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