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I just ran my engine specs through a calculator and it say my dynamic pressure should be at 150.06 psi. AWESOME! I have a healthy engine that is in spec.

I think I may be getting a little confused. I read the following:

>>Generally, advancing a cam gear opens a valve sooner, and closes it sooner... retarding the cam gear, opens the valve later, and closes it later... since all you've done is "move" the fixed event.

Advancing Intake and Exhaust : This will provide the car with more bottom end power, and will decrease top end. Advancing both cam gears will move overlap earlier but will not increase it.

Retarding Intake and Exhaust : This will increase the cars top end, but will decrease low end. Retarding both cam gears will move the overlap later and but will not change the amount of overlap.

Advance Exhaust Only : This will help the cars top end, and it reduces overlap.

Retard Exhaust only : This will help the cars mid range power, very useful for cars with big turbos / big cams. By increasing overlap, It decreases lag significantly. Doing this will bring the boost on all at once. Very common DSM modification.

Advance Intake only : This will increase overlap and helps the cars bottom end and mid range power. This mod will bring the turbo on all at once, although isnt a very common mod for DSMS.>>

This tends to line up with what I am reading on most MR2 forums about the 3sgte and BC camshafts. The BC camshaft card recommends installing both cams at zero and tuning from there. After some tuning most of the MR2 guys say that advancing the intake 2 degrees and retarding the exhaust by 6 degrees is the best place to start. They also go on to state that no aftermarket cam has ever done well in the zero position in a 3sgte. I am learning a lot about this and it is some pretty cool stuff. Comments???

Seems like advancing intake and retarding exhaust like they mentioned would be worth trying. Of course the thing to do would be to do a few dyno runs at different timing settings to see what works the best for your particular setup.

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That is the plan. I have advanced the intake camshaft timing by 1 degree (2 on the crank) and retarded 3 degrees on the exhaust camshaft (6 on the crank). My butt dyno was going crazy, I love it! Let's see what the real dyno shows me next week. I am excited!

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 1, 2017 - 1:47 PM

So this thread is making a little service, as i am in the process of doing a 5sfte on my vert. Ubhabe read many success stories for these as well. Is it really that bad of an idea, or can it be done safety? Seems to be many that habe done it successfully

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It can be done successfully but as far as time and money let me break it down:

Basics for 3sgte Swap
Engine: $1100
Wiring (done by WireGap): $500
Clutch: $350
Throwout Bearing: $50
Misc Seals and timing belt: $400
Basic exhaust work (mate with stock downpipe): $150
Aftermarket Intake: $200
Intercooler and piping: $200
Blow off valve: $150
Walbro Fuel Pump: $100
Koyo 2-Row Radiator: $350
Basic Manual Boost Controller: $50
Boost Gauge: $60
Total: $3660 + OEM reliability

5sfte (cutting no corners or you will be sorry, speaking from experience)
Used CT26 Turbo: $175
Rebuild of CT26: $500
Low Compression Forged Rods/Pistons (either 8.5:1 or 9:1): $900
3sgte Manifold: $150 (if you can find one)
Quality 3sgte Downpipe: $250
Basic Exhaust Work (Mate with downpipe): $150
Standalone ECU (Megasquirt): $500
AFR Gauge: $175
Oil Pressure Gauge: $60
Water Temp Gauge: $60
Boost Gauge: $60
Full 5sfe OEM Gasket Kit: $400
Oil Filter Relocation: $100
Timing Belt and Water Pump Kit: $100
Dyno Tune: $600
Bearings: $100
Block Machined and Tanked: $150
Cylinder Head resurfaced: $45
RX7 Injectors: $150
Clutch: $350
Throwout Bearing: $50
Aftermarket Intake: $200
Intercooler and piping: $200
Blow off Valve: $150
Walbro Fuel Pump: $100
Koyo 2-Row Radiator: $350
Basic Manual Boost Controller: $50
Total: $6075 + check list engine + extra time rebuilding

The numbers don't lie. I am speaking from personal experience. I spent almost 2 months working on the 5s motor to get it ready for the turbo between measuring everything and waiting for parts to get rebuilt or come back from the machine shop. Then you have to worry about break in time and getting it a tune. Oh and by the way I could not find a base map for this build for the ECU so you are doing trial and error to set up a basic ECU map on a fresh motor just to get it to start. All of this is assuming you do not have a California emission motor, if you do, you will need a federal emissions cylinder head which could cost an extra $250-300 rebuilt. Unless you want to chance a fuel leak (and fire), you need a federal cylinder head so the injectors seat properly.

As for the 3sgte, once I got the wiring harness back which took about 3 weeks, I had the motor in and running (OEM ECU, no tuning required) in a weekend plus I was able to part out the 5s parts I did not need for some additional cash back. Then if you want to spend more money on the 3sgte there is a better aftermarket for it out there.

But comparing power Output let's take a look:
Stock 4th Gen 3sgte (13 psi, 91 Octane Fuel): 260 hp (stock numbers)
Cut no corners 5sfte (13 psi, 91 Octane Fuel): 229 hp (estimated from previous people's builds)

So you may argue, the 260 hp is at the crank not at the wheels so let's say there is the standard 15% drive loss to the 3s, that still is 221 hp. So you have paid almost $3K more for 8 more horsepower and way less reliability or aftermarket support.

But lets say you want more horsepower, both motors are running turbos that can be upgraded with billet wheels for more power or switched over to a T3/4 turbo. The catch is that if you want to upgrade the camshafts for a better torque curve the 5s has to get the existing cams reground which cost $800-900. I put BC cams in my motor for $560 plus $45 to have them machined for a cam sensor tooth.

The take away from my story is not to do a 5sfte but just beware and be prepared for challenges and extra cost. The only down side to a 3s swap is making sure you have a healthy used motor (again speaking from experience). If I had the knowledge I have now back then, I would have went 3sgte from the start. Plus, this was just not me with these problems, I have a friend who was doing a 5sfte build (forged rods and pistons) on a 5th gen Celica the same time I was and he ran into a lot of the same problems and now he has put a 2nd gen 3sgte in his car.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 3, 2017 - 9:33 PM

Moral of the story, stop while you're ahead and go to a 3S-GTE. At least that's my take away from it.

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I think when most people think of doing a turbo on a 5sfe it is easy. I will just slap a turbo on and keep the boost low. It is not that easy. The 5sfe is and economy motor that was not meant to be turbo'ed in stock form. Don't get me wrong, it can be done but for all the money a person will spend doing that, you could spend that amount on a 3sgte and have a 500 hp motor if you wanted. I went into building a 5sfte with the wrong mentality. I thought I could build it cheap and it would take less time and be less complicated. That was not the case. Yes, there are success stories of the 5sfte but most of them I know of they got at most 1 and half to 2 years out of the motor before they had problems. Now most of those people are swapped to either 3SGTE's, 1MZFE's, or 2GRFE's for the OEM reliability and extra power. There is one plus to doing a 5sfte, you will get really good at pulling the motor our of the car because stuff is going to break. When I first started my 5sfte build it took me 2 days to get the motor out of the car. By the 5th time (in 2 years) of me pulling the motor, I was able to have it out in 3 hours (not sure that is a plus).

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 4, 2017 - 10:32 AM

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When I do my AWD Conversion I'm going to create 2 milspec connections so that you can disconnect the engine super easy. I've also considered cutting the main frame up front and creating a bolt in section so that I can remove the entire front of the vehicle and only disconnect the harness and hoses.

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I love what Tweek'd Performance is doing with their engine harnesses for the 2jzgte swaps (not on our cars). They have it on a single plug that mounts to the firewall so you don't have to fish the wires in and out of the engine bay every time you need to remove the engine. I wish disconnecting the wiring could be that simple.

I put in a nice 3 point front strut bar. I heard when you link the 2 strut towers together it really improves the cornering.


I went with the Beatrush brand and I am really happy with the look. I can't wait to see how it handles.

I took my Celica to the dyno and they did 3 pulls for me. Here are the engine specs going into the dyno:

4th gen 3sgte (stock bottom end)
264 Brian Crower Camshafts (1 degree advanced on intake and 3 degrees retarded on the exhaust)
3 inch custom made intake
SCG-1 Innovate Boost Controller
3 inch catless downpipes
2.5 inch exhaust with Magnaflow cat, Magnaflow muffler, and glass pack resonator
Stock CT15B Turbo
2.5 inch intercooler piping
CX Racing Intercooler
SSQV Blow Off Valve
Koyo 2-Row Radiator with stock fans
Stock ECU

See the photo below.



The first 2 pulls were done with the wastegate set to 28% with a 20% gain. This gave the engine 11 psi.

After that we let the car cool down for about 20 minutes and then I turned the wastegate up to 44% for the last pull. This gave the engine 13 psi.

I felt I left about 10-20 psi on the table. I could have added more gain to try to get 1 or 2 more psi. In the end I did not want to push it and chance damaging the motor. PrimeMR2 told me it is safe to run about 14 psi on 91 octane and 17 psi on 93 octane. For these dyno pulls I ran 91 octane with some STP octane booster just as a safety precaution.

These are pretty good numbers. A completely stock motor is rated at 256 hp at the crank (approx 218 hp at the wheels) at 13 psi. If I am getting 238 hp at the wheels with the same boost then that works out to approximately 280 hp at the crank. A gain of 20 hp at the wheels with some basic mods and a stock ECU is pretty good.

I think tuned for 93 octane you'd be good for at least 300 at the crank.

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The stock ECU is good for this car. It has fuel maps up to around 20-21 psi. It could use a good camshaft gear tuning on a dyno. The you are right 93 octane with 1-2 psi will get me there easy. I have been using 91 and octane booster but who knows how much it really boost octane or how well is evenly mixes in the tank.

If it's a return style fuel system then it mixes quite well actually!

Makes me want to buy a set of cams and install them to my Caldina... If only I had the money lol...

I forgot what forum I was reading it on, but there was someone who did a Megasquirt standalone on his 4th gen 3sgte. Once he got it tuned he picked up 40-50 more hp to the wheels with an all stock motor. This was done with a mild tune as well. I guess the stock ECU is tuned very very conservatively and I heard a lot of OEM ECUs are like that.

I have a Megaquirt DIYPNP ECU laying around from my 5sfte build but the pinout type is wrong. I have a 76 pin on it and I need a 122 pin. I got in touch with DIYAUTOTUNE and they sell a kit that converts the ECU to a 122 pin. The kit is the DIYBOB-N122 and the great thing is it only costs $89. That is way better than buying a whole new ECU. I will break the soldering iron back out and get to work. I love that once I get this ECU tuned it will open up a whole new set of options for upgrading the motor down the line.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 16, 2017 - 5:10 PM

Stock ECU tune is always conservative, gotta make it last through that warranty period. My brother's Genesis 2.0T gained 50 hp just from having the ECU uploaded with a new tune. Pretty much every car I can think of that's boosted from the factory, rather that's from a turbo or a supercharger, benefits greatly from just an ECU tune.

I am excited to see what power is hiding in this motor. To keep things clean on the forum, I will use my DIYPNP thread to document what I am doing. It is at the following link:

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=96250

Had another track day last weekend and the car gave me absolutely no problems all day. The new water to air intercooler worked great. My engine temps and oil pressure stayed right where it needed to be. I turned the boost duty cycle all the way down (8 psi of boost) and I was able to focus on learning the track.

My next time out I plan to turn up the boost to 13-14 psi and really do some damage. I love this 3sgte! The motor is very responsive and the turbo spools so fast that the car almost feels NA.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Aug 6, 2017 - 12:52 AM

glad to hear you say this after all the things you ran into. now you really get to enjoy it.
someday hopefully I'll get to enjoy a 4th gen swap of my own. hahaha

A friend of mine has a YouTube channel and he filmed some of the track day. Here is the link with a couple shots of my car. Time skip to 1:30 to see my car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udtDYheFYg8

It's so.....quiet!

It's the quiet ones you have to look out for.

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It is a 2.5 inch custom exhaust with a Magnaflow cat, Glasspack resonator, and Magnaflow muffler. This custom exhaust was put on when the car still had the 5sfe with the custom header. At first I had it with no resonator but it was WAY too loud and droney. Now that I have a 3sgte, the turbo is acting like a 2nd resonator making it super quiet. I am planning to either switch to a different, more aggressive looking muffler for some more sound or completely rip it out and go 3 inches. If I go 3 inches I will still keep a cat and muffler on the car but I am unsure if I should do a resonator. With the car being a cloth-top convertible, if the exhaust is too loud then it ruins the drive because you can hear EVERYTHING. What do you guys think? Will I pick up any horsepower going to a 3 inch exhaust?

You will definitely pick up some power by going to a 3” exhaust but I wouldn’t even begin to know what kind of number to place on it. My suggestion is to keep your current 2.5” exhaust if you are happy with it, but get a 3” downpipe (if you don’t already have one) and a boost activated exhaust cutout. That way you still have your quiet and comfortable cruising but you get all the perks of a larger exhaust at WOT. Free flowing when you need it, silent when you don’t.

Between turbo, cat, and muffler it should still be fairly quiet. Here's an interesting page on the subject: http://www.koracing.net/viewarticle.php?article=7 Personally if it were me I'd just stick with 2.5" and put the money elsewhere.

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Boost activated cutout? Is that one of those systems that bypass the muffler at certain sport modes on modern cars? That sounds like it would be pretty cool if it was activated by a certain boost level (no "sports +" mode on our cars). I have heard of people doing that with a wastegate on the exhaust. Are there any systems out there I could purchase? Also, I already have a cat-less 3 inch heat wrapped downpipe.

Exactly, you hit a certain boost level and it opens up automatically to bypass the rest of the exhaust.

https://www.amazon.com/Loudvalves-Activated...s/dp/B01C3CWKIW

I’m not necessarily recommending this one, as the description admits that you’ll likely have an exhaust leak, but it’s a good reference. I know Sound Performance has a good one but it looks like they’re out of stock at the moment.

http://www.spracingonline.com/store/category.php?sub=111

That's my plan she I swap a 4th gen, anyway. Keep the 2.5" exhaust from my BEAMS but run a 3" downpipe and a cutout, but electric cars boost activated is TBD.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/W1209-DC-12V-Therm...e-/112240151477 would that run a fan for the intercooler? I wouldn't trust the on board relay but I think you can use it to flip a bigger relay for a decent fan.