Hi, can I ask those who have had experience in this what kind of ratios they expect to see runnning their 5sfte or 3sftes?

I have a wideband, which fluctuates around 14.2 to 15.3 at idle, and 13.5 - 15.1/2 ish off boost runs. The AEM wideband gauge does continually fluctuate though, going through various ranges constantly.

I did do boost run to see, and was measuring 12-13s on WOT. Only 2 runs as not sorted det cans yet so not monitoring detonation. No more boost runs till I work on that.

This is using 295cc injectors, stock pressure. I do have 460cc injectors available too, as well as an afpr, and have emanage blue fitted.

What is the expected values and also, should my wideband be CONSTANTLY fluctuating ? As I will have issues with street tuning as it is never on one value for long ? Or do you guys look for a range?

Any experience would be gratefully received and listened to.

This post has been edited by digs: Jul 22, 2013 - 3:27 AM

12 is good, high 11s are better. 13s are lean for my liking

These are for WOT pulls, cruising its normal for the gauge to be bouncing in the high 14s and low 15s

Ideally you want anywhere from 11:1 to 11.5:1 AFR.

Depending on the octane you are running. The higher the octane the leaner you can run. Sounds like those 295cc ran out of fuel if you are seeing 13afr. 13 is too lean, dont run it like that.

Thats guys. Running on 99 octane (UK RON)...not sure what your pump gas is normally, uk is 95 standard, so am only using our high octane equivalent. US use anti-knock rating I think, which is a bit lower value for the same effectiveness I think....maybe 94, when US pump gas is normally 87?? ?

UK fuel prices means this costs a bomb to fill up! - we pay over twice US price...

Maybe worth fitting the adjustable fuel pressure regulator then, and up it a bit before going whole hog and trying the 460s?

Really useful advice though, cheers guys!

This post has been edited by digs: Jul 22, 2013 - 3:26 PM

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You wont get much more fuel from the fpr, and it isnt recommended to do if you have the stock fuel pump.

I'd install the 460cc injectors. BTW what are you tuning with?

Have fitted a 255 lb fuel pump so have that side covered. Using emanage blue which is why hesitation on the 460s as emanage only does plus 50% injector size if I understand.

However.... When I do use it's injector correction to go from 215cc (3sfe) to 295cc (3sge) it goes so lean i cant run the engine. Using cleaned 3sge injectors so flow rate as should be. Which makes me curious! With no tweaks the 3sge injectors seem to operating as stock almost, slight over fuelling. Even using 250 to 295 makes it too lean.

Bit of investigation ahead!

Emanage rotary settings 3/4/1 btw. 4 cylinder 2 coil wasted spark, plus what seems to be the map sensor settings.

This post has been edited by digs: Jul 22, 2013 - 11:31 PM

Oh I see... that emanage will be your weak link.

If you are running too lean I would recommend lowering the boost.

I think you should be using the adjustable fuel reg anyways for its rising rate.


I'm not sure how the emanage works, I'm guessing it uses its own map sensor and it works by constantly feeding garbage to the stock ecu with +/- corrections

So if you increase your fuel supply, then take off from emanage you will reduce fuel but increase ignition as you hit a lower loadpoint on the map. Perhaps reduce your distributor advance a bit, in diagnostic mode set 8 deg advance

all you can really do is set the air/fuel ratios and let the stock ecu/knock sensor take care of the rest, with this situation i would aim for an even richer ratio, 11:1 under boost is for tuned fuel&ignition, in your case with excess advance you'll want to run richer to be on the safe side maybe even 10:5:1 under higher loads

Thanks again for all the replies guy, really do appreciate them.


emanage runs off the map sensor (so the 3sgte one I have installed) though it does have its own I can buy to.

Your right, the airflow map changes the map signal the ecu sees, using that to add or subtract school.

However it can also add fuel through increasing the injector duty cycle, which could be a solution as well.

I am going to connect the wideband to the emanage, and log map pressure, af, throttle, injector duty cycle and revs, and see how they correlate at the moment, then work from there. I have some good ideas now on where I should be aiming, which is really good. Can make off boost checks first, then partial boost etc, trying to keep safe and backing off if underfuelling.

Will finish my electronic det mic so can record engine noise at the same time as logging data, as another dimension to the data.

Like suggested, will fit the fpr, as it is just sitting there at the moment, and can always set it to stock.

Will report back on how it all goes!

OP: Stop. I gotta say this again but your e-manage will be your limiting factor. Keep adding more and more stuff to the e-manage and you'll be way over what a Megasquirt would cost you. You're going to end up having paid over $400 if you add the internal map, the injector harness and then you're going to want to add the ignition control too and, lo and behold, you're still fighting the OEM ecu running a piggyback.

Lower your boost. Keep the 295cc injectors, and save for a standalone (be it megasquirt or not). You're going to end up blowing your engine soon enough if you don't, like everybody else has.

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been reading the megasquirt thread that someone posted actually with interest can drive off boost without issue, and 295s idle and cruise ok, so can do that. However do already have an emanage harness with injector and ignition connections, it's a plug and play harness created by a guy who does them I know, so haven't spent that much on it.

But hearing what your saying, will research standalones. Never let it be said I don't listen to others

I don't wanna sound condescending but it's your engine's funeral. A reliable tune is more important than anything in a turbo engine. It is something a piggyback really can't offer. It's not the same using a piggy back to adjust a few fuel settings here and there on an already turbo engine (like using a SAFC in a 3SGTE), vs using a piggyback to tune a NA engine made turbo.

It's not that you're having "issues" on boost... you're killing the engine on-boost the more you beat on it without proper tuning.

^-- not to mention standalone can monitor the factory knock sensor and flash your engine light as you drive

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it's all cool, appreciate you guys taking time to answer my questions. I get what you are saying, effectively creating a new engine (3sfte, or the 5sfte) should have a new ecu (not piggy back).

some piggy backs work just fine. Im not sure why everyone is ragging on the Emanage, its not a bad device. I have never used one but have friends that do. Supra guys love the MAP ECU2. Megasquirt is an excellent stand alone for the cost and what it can do. Its just alot of work to use them.

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Maybe because they never worked with one, the e-Manage Ultimate is one of the finest piggybacks available and probably the best way to get a turbo conversion done if your not looking to go nuts with the power. Keeping the stock ECU to control off-boost driving will be better than a cheap tune with a standalone and you can keep stuff like knock control etc., it´s basically like driving a stock car and the e-Manage will start to alter fuel and ignition as soon as you hit boost...

The resolution of the tuning maps is high enough to get a good tune and you can run any size injector you want. I have 650cc in my 7A-FE with no idle problem or any else, i tuned a 2.2 vtec prelude with 1000cc injectors, no problem at all.
The most important thing is to get a good tuned ignition map.

>Please mind the fact that OP is using an e-manage blue, which is far from "as good as" the Ultimate... with that said:


The e-Manage Ultimate is the worst full-feature piggyback out of the two most common ones (AEM FIC and e-Manage Utimate). I say this because of how it retards timing (because it doesn't control and you can't "tune ignition", you can only retard it which isn't always what you want).

Unlike the AEM unit, the e-manage doesn't intercept and modify the signal from the crank sensor. Rather it intercepts the coil(s) directly. While this is OK on distributor cars, on distributorless cars it's a piece of expensive crap. Aside from that, when bought brand new it doesn't come with half the features the AEM unit does; you have to purchase most of the upgrades.

The e-manage is not a bad device, nor is the AEM FIC, but they aren't ideal for turning an n/a engine into a boosted one. They're good for adjusting fuel and perhaps retarding timing on stock boosted engines. The stock ECU simply doesn't know what boost is in a 5S-FE/3S-FE which means you're basically using 2 ECUs in your car, one for boost and one for closed loop.

Hafkai, it sounds like you haven't used a standalone, and that you've only heard horror stories about them. I've used the FIC and I love it. If I were to choose a piggyback for any future car of mine, it would be the FIC. Sadly, it doesn't work on the Celica because of the distributor. It can't interpret the distributor's signal well enough and that is why the few people who have tried it on the 6th Gen have had issues.

Personally, I had a Megasquirt-II in my 6GC and the idle was smoother than the stock ECU, and the tune I got wasn't cheap, in fact it was free, and the cruising was a lot better than stock too. I saved a ton of gas from tuning a considerably lean cruising. Most standalones have knock control, I don't know what you're saying when you stated "retain knock control" when in fact the knock algorithms and technology on new standalones are far better than the stock Celica's knock control system ever was and can be adjusted to control knock in much more complex ways than the OEM ECU does.

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Jul 24, 2013 - 3:55 PM

Well, my e-Manage was able to retard and advance the timing how i wanted it, all the others i know around here are able to do the same and it works quite ok.
The part about the 2 ECUs is true and i don´t like it either, wich is why i`m running a EMS 6860 standalone right now in my Celica, so yes i have used a standalone myself.

Most cheap or affordable standalones dont realy have a usefull knock control, lots of them got something like this in the last years but i dont think its as good as a stock system, maybe on the expensive systems but they cost more than our cars ...

My Celi was running great with the e-Manage but i wanted more and the car is just for fun now so i decided to go standalone.

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I don't know but the knock control module in the MS3X is quite good.

Hi, interesting debate

Could you clarify this ?

"Unlike the AEM unit, the e-manage doesn't intercept and modify the signal from the crank sensor. Rather it intercepts the coil(s) directly. While this is OK on distributor cars, on distributorless cars it's a piece of expensive crap."

What's the downside of intercepting coils rather than crank sensor ? As my 3sfe, being the later revised version, is distributorless?

Really am enjoying reading all these comments, learning new things

Intercepting the crank sensor is much more accurate and a more reliable way of altering ignition timing than intercepting the coils.

Piggy backs will never give you a good tune because they are always trying to fool the stock ecu into doing something different. For the same money you can buy a full stand alone like megasquirt and control every aspect of your car.

As for knock control, If you can fully tune the car (not just trick it into doing something), then you can tune it so that it runs without any knock.
But yes, some type of knock control is still a very good thing to have. This was an issue of concern with my diypnp that just features very basic knock control, so I picked up a used JS Safeguard for my setup. Its been a very handy unit, and Id say its actually better than the factory knock control system, especially since I can actually see when its detecting a problem.

Thanks guys

anyone know if these would fit out of interest....?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-Celica-MR...=item3cd41b3c1c

They should with the correct seals.

Ok, so I am understanding the issues now (I can listen to opinion but until I try it I won't really understand).

There is 2 ecus, closed loop and it's just sits at stoich, open loop and I can fuel plenty actually to cope with boost, but the transition from closed to open can happen in boost, so it can run lean in low boost. Seems to need a foot jammed right down to hit open, and the right fuelling.

So run in two modes. With a standalone, this wouldn't happen I assume and you can tune the full range.

Got the wideband hooked up to the emanage now, so will test tomorrow just when I will hit open loop as should see the throttle position % and af logged.

Loving investigating this though, only one way to learn

And putting a little cash away for a 3sgte transplant in the future....

Bah, you already have a 3S-FE... all you really need is a set of pistons, rods and head with accessories from a 3SGTE... Maybe you'll need a crankshaft, I'm not sure.

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ok, intrigued. how does that google thing work again.....

That's the meat and potatoes of the deal... you need a lot of small pieces of course, and that's where the money starts disappearing as if by magic.