Random_Stranger

#1

Ok, I am looking at options here for upgrades and I wanted to know if there is even a difference in keeping the 5sfe 2.2 and maybe swapping the head for a 3sgte (Ofcourse turbos are going to be used) to have the 2.2L or is having a 3sgte doing the 2.2L any different? That's what I really would like to know.

This post has been edited by Random_Stranger: Mar 25, 2010 - 12:52 AM

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91 MR2 Turbo SW20, 92 MR2 Turbo SW20, 95 Celica GT ST204

SoDo

#2

So you are comparing a 5sgte vs a 3sgte stroked to a 2.2l?

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1999 Celica GT Hatchback

trdproven

#3

theres just a lot extra work and tuning to do a 5sgte

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94 Celica GT|Toyota OEM Japan|Toyota Racing Development|Tom's|Competition Clutch|5Zigen|Apexi||Laille/Beatrush|Magnecor|Denso|Royal Purple|Optima|PIAA|PW JDM|Megan Racing|Nitto||Work|Greddy|Samco|Project Mu|H&R|Gates|Moog|Rota|Yokohama|Epman|1320|Upgr804 Celica GT|Toyota OEM Japan|Toyota Racing Development|Tein|BC Racing|Greddy|89 Supra (Sold)90 Supra (Sold)

garin

#4

i'd go 3sgte... 3sgte is an already turbo equipped engine. less work envloved...

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"Slow your roll"http://www.flickr.com/photos/g_styer/http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=pr...mp;id=601896863

playr158

#5

>

QUOTE (Random_Stranger @ Mar 25, 2010 - 12:52 AM)

>Ok, I am looking at options here for upgrades and I wanted to know if there is even a difference in keeping the 5sfe 2.2 and maybe swapping the head for a 3sgte (Ofcourse turbos are going to be used) to have the 2.2L or is having a 3sgte doing the 2.2L any different? That's what I really would like to know.

Ok the OEM 3sgte is 2.0L....if you want to do a 2.2L stroked 3sgte you'd have to use 5sfe parts anyways.

If you chose to go 5sgte (head swap the 5sfe) to achieve your 2.2L, I believe you end up with a better cylinder wall thickness than the 3sgte. (i could be wrong on the wall thing, its been awhile since i looked at it) Also, if you go 3sgte 2.2L, you'd use a 5sfe crank machined to accept 3sgte rods, which is kinda just more work than really head swapping.

Also oil squirters, i'm not sure if the 5sfe has them?
It really is just 2 methods of achieving a very similar goal with small differences.

Smaay

#6

5S-FE does not have squirters! there is more machine work to stroke a 3S. upgrading the rods and pistons and porting the 5S-FE head is much cheaper than a 3S build. yes you have more options for the 3S like cams and a GTE head, but i have no doubt that with rods, pistons, and a good port, the 5S-FE turbo setup will make 400 HP.

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2001 Celica GT-S Turbo1997 Supra TT 6speed1997 Celica 3MZ/1MZ swap1990 Celica All-Trac

_Jim_

#7

It all depends on goals.

Yes a forged 5sfte turbo setup will make 400whp without much trouble.

A forged 2.2L stroker is easier work for you to accomplish then a 5sgte. After you have the 5sfe crank machined to accept 3sgte rods, it is just a standard forged engine rebuild.

The 5sgte requires a fair amount of external block work to mate a 3sgte head on it, and a large mismatch of 3sgte and 5sfe parts. There is a fairly extensive amount of block work that needs to be done if you are looking to attach an AWD transmission to it also. I am going the 5sgte route for that fact of the stronger block, thicker dynlinder walls, and the fact that I have the factory 2.2L 5sfe stroked out to a "2.4L"

But to answer your question about them being the same thing (which I guess you mean displacement) then yes, it is the same thing. The 5sgte with 87.5mm pistons is only .05 larger then the 2.2l 3sgte stroker kit.

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330whp 309ft/lbs @ 21 PSI

Random_Stranger

#8

>

QUOTE (_Jim_ @ Mar 26, 2010 - 1:18 PM)

>It all depends on goals.

Yes a forged 5sfte turbo setup will make 400whp without much trouble.

A forged 2.2L stroker is easier work for you to accomplish then a 5sgte. After you have the 5sfe crank machined to accept 3sgte rods, it is just a standard forged engine rebuild.

The 5sgte requires a fair amount of external block work to mate a 3sgte head on it, and a large mismatch of 3sgte and 5sfe parts. There is a fairly extensive amount of block work that needs to be done if you are looking to attach an AWD transmission to it also. I am going the 5sgte route for that fact of the stronger block, thicker dynlinder walls, and the fact that I have the factory 2.2L 5sfe stroked out to a "2.4L"

But to answer your question about them being the same thing (which I guess you mean displacement) then yes, it is the same thing. The 5sgte with 87.5mm pistons is only .05 larger then the 2.2l 3sgte stroker kit.

Ok, thanks guys and thank you Jim. Now here's my next question... I haven't researched it myself, but I have heard on the 4g63t, you can do 2.4L stroker kit. Since the 4g63 and the 3sgte are both 2.0L engines, do you think using the stroker kit for the 4g63 is possible to use in combination with the 3sgte?

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91 MR2 Turbo SW20, 92 MR2 Turbo SW20, 95 Celica GT ST204

presure2

#9

>

QUOTE (Random_Stranger @ Mar 28, 2010 - 5:53 PM)

>>

QUOTE (_Jim_ @ Mar 26, 2010 - 1:18 PM)

>It all depends on goals.

Yes a forged 5sfte turbo setup will make 400whp without much trouble.

A forged 2.2L stroker is easier work for you to accomplish then a 5sgte. After you have the 5sfe crank machined to accept 3sgte rods, it is just a standard forged engine rebuild.

The 5sgte requires a fair amount of external block work to mate a 3sgte head on it, and a large mismatch of 3sgte and 5sfe parts. There is a fairly extensive amount of block work that needs to be done if you are looking to attach an AWD transmission to it also. I am going the 5sgte route for that fact of the stronger block, thicker dynlinder walls, and the fact that I have the factory 2.2L 5sfe stroked out to a "2.4L"

But to answer your question about them being the same thing (which I guess you mean displacement) then yes, it is the same thing. The 5sgte with 87.5mm pistons is only .05 larger then the 2.2l 3sgte stroker kit.

Ok, thanks guys and thank you Jim. Now here's my next question... I haven't researched it myself, but I have heard on the 4g63t, you can do 2.4L stroker kit. Since the 4g63 and the 3sgte are both 2.0L engines, do you think using the stroker kit for the 4g63 is possible to use in combination with the 3sgte?

no. (thats just the easy answer, not trying to be rude)
there isnt enough cylinder wall thickness to do a true 2.4l on a 3s block. (from what ive read)

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Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered

Random_Stranger

#10

>

QUOTE (presure2 @ Mar 28, 2010 - 4:15 PM)

>>

QUOTE (Random_Stranger @ Mar 28, 2010 - 5:53 PM)

>>

QUOTE (_Jim_ @ Mar 26, 2010 - 1:18 PM)

>It all depends on goals.

Yes a forged 5sfte turbo setup will make 400whp without much trouble.

A forged 2.2L stroker is easier work for you to accomplish then a 5sgte. After you have the 5sfe crank machined to accept 3sgte rods, it is just a standard forged engine rebuild.

The 5sgte requires a fair amount of external block work to mate a 3sgte head on it, and a large mismatch of 3sgte and 5sfe parts. There is a fairly extensive amount of block work that needs to be done if you are looking to attach an AWD transmission to it also. I am going the 5sgte route for that fact of the stronger block, thicker dynlinder walls, and the fact that I have the factory 2.2L 5sfe stroked out to a "2.4L"

But to answer your question about them being the same thing (which I guess you mean displacement) then yes, it is the same thing. The 5sgte with 87.5mm pistons is only .05 larger then the 2.2l 3sgte stroker kit.

Ok, thanks guys and thank you Jim. Now here's my next question... I haven't researched it myself, but I have heard on the 4g63t, you can do 2.4L stroker kit. Since the 4g63 and the 3sgte are both 2.0L engines, do you think using the stroker kit for the 4g63 is possible to use in combination with the 3sgte?

no. (thats just the easy answer, not trying to be rude)
there isnt enough cylinder wall thickness to do a true 2.4l on a 3s block. (from what ive read)

Oh ok thanks. So then can the 5sfe be brought up to a 2.4L? Basically I am just trying out my options. If I am going to go out of my way to upgrade, I might as well go hard or not at all, or at least live in comfort knowing I can if I wanted to. That's all.

This post has been edited by Random_Stranger: Mar 28, 2010 - 6:51 PM

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91 MR2 Turbo SW20, 92 MR2 Turbo SW20, 95 Celica GT ST204

bdub215

#11

**** if you want a 2.4 swap a 2az lose weight in the process and boost that.

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90 Toyota Celica (S53) totaled R.I.P98 Toyota Corolla (C59) 183k 117whp needs a tune93 Lexus ES300 (E53) 120k Its a stick95 Lexus Sc300 AutoTragic FTL

Random_Stranger

#12

>

QUOTE (bdub215 @ Mar 28, 2010 - 7:25 PM)

>**** if you want a 2.4 swap a 2az lose weight in the process and boost that.

But I am just wondering power per dollar vs best all out options. I do not know anything about 2az, anything I can reference?

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91 MR2 Turbo SW20, 92 MR2 Turbo SW20, 95 Celica GT ST204

richee3

#13

The new 4 cylinder Camry has a 2AZ, so does the Scion tC. I personally think you are better off sticking to a 5S/3S because of all the electronics related to the 2AZ. It would be a nightmare to swap. I'm genuinely curious to see where you go with this... If nothing else, then one of the MR2's could get a sweet engine.

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"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others labored hard for." -Socrates. Even Socrates told us touse the search button!2006 Aston Martin V8 Vantage.1998 Celica GT-BEAMSSwapped.2022 4Runner TRD Off Road Prenium.2021 GMC Sierra AT4.

delusionz

#14

I hope you're not considering this on the train of thought that 2.0 is a downgrade from 2.2. Because a stock 3S-GE or 3S-GTE will both have better power characteristics at any point in the rev range than your 5S-FE.

What your 5S-FE has gained from the extra 200cc, the 3S-GE has gained from high compression and your 3S-GTE has gained from having a very efficient quick spooling CT20b turbo which registers positive pressure from as low as 1500RPM.

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Mike W1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOURGT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC269awhp / 273ft-lbs

_Jim_

#15

>

QUOTE (delusionz @ Mar 29, 2010 - 1:04 AM)

>I hope you're not considering this on the train of thought that 2.0 is a downgrade from 2.2. Because a stock 3S-GE or 3S-GTE will both have better power characteristics at any point in the rev range than your 5S-FE.

What your 5S-FE has gained from the extra 200cc, the 3S-GE has gained from high compression and your 3S-GTE has gained from having a very efficient quick spooling CT20b turbo which registers positive pressure from as low as 1500RPM.

No, he is strictly talking the bottom end.

The forged 2.4L 5sgte is a bit more expensive then the 2.0 or 2.2L 3sgte, but as far as motor builds go...it is isnt terrible. The only down side to the 2.4L 5sgte is that you will have to have ATS do the build, as they are the only company that I am aware of that offer this service. So since you have to have ATS do the build, you will get a motor back that is just as much plug and play to a 3sgte head, as a 3sgte bottom end would be.

And if you are putting this into your Mr2 or using anything but an AWD transmission, you wont need to spend the extra money to have the required block work done. If you are using an AWD transmission, you will need to either pay for the required block work to clear the transfer case, and the drilling and tapping of the block for 1 of the AWD support brackets.

Having a fully forged 2.4L 5sgte bottom end is as simple as dropping $3000

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330whp 309ft/lbs @ 21 PSI

SwissFerdi

#16

>

QUOTE (_Jim_ @ Mar 29, 2010 - 8:05 AM)

>Having a fully forged 2.4L 5sgte bottom end is as simple as dropping $3000

Oh, the sacrifices you make for badassery...I cannot wait to see your plans fulfilled.

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'97 ST\ Eibach \ KYB \ Kenwood \ Alpine \ Cusco \ OEM+[sold 10/18]'93 MX-5LE

Random_Stranger

#17

>

QUOTE (_Jim_ @ Mar 29, 2010 - 5:05 AM)

>>

QUOTE (delusionz @ Mar 29, 2010 - 1:04 AM)

>I hope you're not considering this on the train of thought that 2.0 is a downgrade from 2.2. Because a stock 3S-GE or 3S-GTE will both have better power characteristics at any point in the rev range than your 5S-FE.

What your 5S-FE has gained from the extra 200cc, the 3S-GE has gained from high compression and your 3S-GTE has gained from having a very efficient quick spooling CT20b turbo which registers positive pressure from as low as 1500RPM.

No, he is strictly talking the bottom end.

The forged 2.4L 5sgte is a bit more expensive then the 2.0 or 2.2L 3sgte, but as far as motor builds go...it is isnt terrible. The only down side to the 2.4L 5sgte is that you will have to have ATS do the build, as they are the only company that I am aware of that offer this service. So since you have to have ATS do the build, you will get a motor back that is just as much plug and play to a 3sgte head, as a 3sgte bottom end would be.

And if you are putting this into your Mr2 or using anything but an AWD transmission, you wont need to spend the extra money to have the required block work done. If you are using an AWD transmission, you will need to either pay for the required block work to clear the transfer case, and the drilling and tapping of the block for 1 of the AWD support brackets.

Having a fully forged 2.4L 5sgte bottom end is as simple as dropping $3000

Hmmm... Thanks Jim, you are most helpful. I am going to research this 2.4 and look into this further... But I think I might be going this route for one of the MR2s... For the Celica, I might just stick with the 3sgte (when it comes time).

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91 MR2 Turbo SW20, 92 MR2 Turbo SW20, 95 Celica GT ST204

MGCustoms325

#18

While you're at it, research the 2gr-fe. In one word, BEAST!

aww_shoook_em

#19

when swapping the 3SGTE, are you gonna have to get new, customized engine mounts or can you use the old 5SFE engine mounts?

and what other stuff do you have to acquire?? as in do I have to get a new chip, harness, etc.?
(sorry if the questions are newb as hell)

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^_^

95CelicaST

#20

No, you can use the stock 5s mounts. A quick peek in the stickies would have answered that.

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1991 MR2 - T-tops - Crimson Red - Gen3 3SGTE - Lots of moneyI'm not really an asshole, but I play one on the internet.**** Photobucket

taibones

#21

i talked with a shop that mainly deals with toyota and i thought of stroking a 5s with with a custom crank machined, custom rods and pistons with a max bore on a 5s block, the most i could get it to it 2300cc, not really worth 3 grand for a custom crank and only get 1 ltr out of it

This post has been edited by taibones: Jan 7, 2011 - 3:41 PM

95CelicaST

#22

Better to get a 99 5sfe block and have the crank machined to accept 3s rods.

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1991 MR2 - T-tops - Crimson Red - Gen3 3SGTE - Lots of moneyI'm not really an asshole, but I play one on the internet.**** Photobucket

bccentaur3

#23

Or just get 5sfe crower rods no need to machine crank and lose stroke. I can speak with experience make sure you stick with one head gasket when you machine the coolant passages. Switching head gaskets between the gens isn't a good idea. Preferably a TTE HG

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98 Celica gt red- totaled deer94 Celica st black DD (bad weather beater)- totaled deer95 Celica gt silver- chassis sold88 Celica All-Trac (Burned to a crisp)94 Celica gt white (sold)In need of a rust free chassis!!!!

95st-celica

#24

Honestly if i were you, i would stick with a base 3S-GTE, and bore it out from there if you really want to go stroker. People talk about the wall thickness of the block, but there are mr2's pushing upwards of 800hp and not having a problem.

If you are going for the badass factor, then do whatever you want, its your money. If it were me, personally, i would stick with the 3s. Less machine work, already turbo'd engine, can use the same head, HKS sells cranks, parts availability, there are a lot of pros. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing like a frankenstein build, but its just more work in the end, to have about the same power capabilites.

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I"M NOT A TOYOTA FAN, IM A FANATIC1984 accord hatch 5 speed (T-Belt)-Junkyard1991 VDUB jetta wolfsburg Ed. 5 speed (clutch)-junkyard1988 Dodge Aries K (sold)1969 Chevy El camino - Traded for celica1991 Dodge Daytona-Traded for Celica1988 Chevy Camaro-Work in Progress1989 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 - For Sale1995 Toyota Celica-Work in Progress

bccentaur3

#25

That's what time doing with the next build. 3sgte 5s crank crowed rods .020 over pistons that's it.

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98 Celica gt red- totaled deer94 Celica st black DD (bad weather beater)- totaled deer95 Celica gt silver- chassis sold88 Celica All-Trac (Burned to a crisp)94 Celica gt white (sold)In need of a rust free chassis!!!!