Torque is the ability for something to rotate something else.

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yes, it turns the earth under your car.

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There you have it.

from an engineering perspective, torque is the rotational force for every unit distance at a given time, while horsepower is the rate at which torque changes per unit time. in most cases, torque and horsepower go hand in hand..

so torque is to speed, as horsepower is to acceleration..

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Aug 12, 2009 - 11:16 PM

I thought it was the other way around?

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Its the delivery of the torque that makes the difference. The 3S is available from around 3200rpm, 90% of torque on my engine was in then. I was hitting 132ft/lbs at 3200 and 152 ft at maximum around 5200ish.

the way i always think about it is to really forget bhp cause its really only a small part of the puzzle and not that usefull, and think about how much torque the engine generates and over what rpm range it is generating that torque, from that you then take into account the gearing which will be dictated by the rpm range, because its torque at the wheels that is making your car move. once you get your head round that its easier to tell what engines are comparible, because those with low torque but a large rpm ceiling matched to correct gearing can end up with the same torque at the wheels as a large capacity v6 that doesnt rev so high, the only difference in the end being power delivery, ultimate speed of the car can end up the same.

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WOW..

ok there was a few weeks ago I saw on ebay that there was this 7th gen which has a 3sgte swap..
IDK why he was selling it.. IDK why he chose 3sgte to put in there..



I dont have any idea for the performance b/c the account user account was closed and cant watch the video.

feasible or not it has been done

here's a link with pics if the swap

http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcarsfile...rtNewCelica.htm

thought this might be interesting given the discussion on power and torque bands etc, years ago i considered swapping the beams for a v6, madness i know but i like to explore options and i did some maths and decided it was a waste of time, these calcs ignore transmission loss, given they use the same box and assume the wheels are the same size to keep things simple, also assuming you shift at the point of peak power, and assuming the engines are advertised power. In practice i dont know how realistic they would be but interesting all the same, i know in reality they both rev out to 7400 but from every v6 i've seen power tails of massivly after about 5500rpm.

this is the 1mz-fe vs the redtop beams. First works out the torque at peak power, then torque at the wheels in each gear, and the mph at which its optimum to shift. make of it what you will, all that torque is only really relevant if you have the right gearing to go with it, 4th gear in the v6 and 3rd gear in the beams paints a pretty interesting picture remember its just for fun so no flaming me please

1mz-fe 190bhp @5400rpm

190 * 5252 = 997880

997880 / 5400 = 184.8

184.8 * 3.285 * 4.176 = 2535.1 - 28 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1512.6 - 48 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 1020.2 - 71 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 793.3 - 91 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 632.8 - 114 mph


beams 3s-ge 197bhp @7000rpm

197 * 5252 = 1034644

1034644 / 7000 = 147.8

147.8 * 3.285 * 4.176 = 2027.5 - 37 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1209.7 - 62 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 815.9 - 91 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 634.5 - 118 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 506.1 - 147 mph

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 13, 2009 - 2:21 PM

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BEAMS is too high compression for a turbo.

An interesting way to look at torque vs. hp is a chainsaw. Everyone knows Stihl makes great chainsaws, and Husqvarna isn't doing too bad themselves. The difference between the two is that Stihl makes their chainsaws with torque, and Husqvarna tries to make the chain spin faster. The idea behind Stihl is that they want the chain to spin, no matter what. Husqvarna on the other hand wants their chain to spin ridiculously fast to get through the wood. Both methods work just fine, but once the wood gets tough, the Husqvarna lacks the torque to keep the blade spinning as fast and won't cut as well as the Stihl, that is still going.

Basically, torque is going to keep your car moving, even under load, such as heavy acceleration. But hp is nice too

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there are thousands of beams blacktop and 2zz owners who have turbo'd there 11.5 :1 comp engines who would disagree with that statement do you know about dynamic compression? also with different pistons it can be any static comp you want.

also do chain saws come with gearboxes?

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 13, 2009 - 4:00 PM

pretty much if i an integra type r vs a ss-III 3sge w/ beams have a race in an uphill 40 degree climb. the celica would win.... Am i on the right track???

thats a crazy build that fensport accomplished!! i have the car and driver magazine of the rod millen 500 hp 7th gen 3sgte awd. only did 0-60 in 5 sec. Kinda slow considering awd and all that power. Didnt say much about the car besides it saying that was too much hp for the car to handle!, but somehow fensports did a better job than Rod Millen.. hmm wierd

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 13, 2009 - 6:37 PM

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in a straight line, the car with the most HP will win. Torque doesn't really matter in a straight line.

The instances where the cars start doing turns and the engines are pushed out of the power band is where torque matters. That is also why the celica GTS is faster then a ITR in a drag race, the gear box was design for the engine and you stay in lift everytime you shift. Other wise the gts engine is not that great.

I'm not sure if any of you watch top gear. But they had an episode where they compared s2000 vs z4 vs boxer. Even though the s2000 had the most hp out of the rest of the cars, it was slowest on the track.

out of lift the 2zz isnt sooo bad, but below 2500 rpm theres just no power at all. and then theres the dead-zone around 5000 rpm...and the engine shakes a bit at 2000 rpm...

but my god it sounds good!

ok i think i got the concept of torque

hey edophus, nice reply. Im liking the gear ratios of the s54 with helical. So i think i remembering asking another member what he topped out in the 3sge redtop and he said 147 mph. What was the fastest you ever went in the celica

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I think the fastest i took it up to was an indicated 140+ mph before i backed off.... outrunning a prelude 2.2 vtec , but it was still climbing well at that point, i think because the power is still climbing it does very well at those speeds. The s54 is well matched to the beams, i think in the case of say the v6 those gear ratios actually hold it back. I have a video of my beams on track chasing down some integra type-r's aswell you might like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShDyuuYaFCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLPZ1bVgHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShDyuuYaFCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLPZ1bVgHs

You're that guy!! You're my hero!!

I've watched those vids tons. If you ever on holidays in Ireland I'm buying you pints.

There is a few turbo'd blacktops here in ireland, and successfully so.

I'll say it again the noise from the beams is amazing, as good as the Honda engines are they still sound like a 125cc motorbike having a heart attack. Word!

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thanks! always nice to know someone appreciated my work would be only to glad to share a pint with a fellow beams fan, were few and far between!.

the beams sounds even better revving up past 8000rpm, its pretty interesting but in japan they raced the ss3 celica's in n1 endurance racing and you cant modify the engine for that, they used a 8400rpm rev limit, the heads will produce peak power at 8600 rpm with no modifications, but due to piston speed at that point its better to keep it to 8000rpm, its an engine with great potential, as soon as you fit an aftermarket ecu to them they come alive. If i'd kept mine any longer i'd have matched the increased rev limit to an e56 gearbox with 4.9 final drive which would have given the same top speed in each gear as the stock car, but nearly 20% more torque at the wheels, eat your heart out v6 owners muahahahaha

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 14, 2009 - 7:48 AM

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and the 2ZZ isnt. i dotn know what the compression of the Beams is but the 2ZZ has 11.5:1 compression and it can be boosted all day long. just have a good tune. Stock 2ZZ's have easily passed the 300HP mark.

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nobody ever lives below 2500 in a 2ZZ so thats not an issue. and i dont know what this dead spot you mention. and i have no engine shaking at 2000. but yes it does sound good. I did a high speed pass for some friends and they say it sounds like a jet engine when im at full boost

very awesome vids. I've seen those before!

so what kinda of mods did that white integra have and what mods did you have on your ss-III celica? ya ive heard the engine one time in person, when the car had just been turned on for a minute and man did it sounded really good!!! and that 2.2 ltr prelude that you raced how much hp does that thing have 200?

how does that work with the ecu. what kind of aftermaket ecu did you have on the celica? if you had one at all?

Oh and i was also thinking that since the 3sge never made it to the US cause of emissions, so why did toyota go with a 1.8 2zz-ge i mean c'mon now 2.0 would of had more torque and a mere 180hp isnt enough. I guess honda has been building better engines than toyota has for a longer time... gotta have respect for the honda engineer's, but no respect for the dumb honda race boys that think their civic with swapped b18c5 is the ****, cause of vtec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojB7KkaR03I haha and this is what i mean!!!! haha its funny

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Mar 11, 2017 - 3:10 AM

thanks the white integra was my freinds, i also helped to build that, both cars were basically identical mod wise, light flywheel, stripped, coilovers and semi slicks, performance was very similar but the integra was running a bit rich up top which was costing him a bit of power, and he was running d2 coilovers which are really junk, we eventually fixed that by fitting a rsr manifold and custom exhaust and binning the d2's for a set of hks hipermax which were infinetly better, both cars put in identical laptimes after that, which says a lot about the strength of the beams considering when both cars are stripped the integra is around 100kg lighter and i hadnt changed anything engine wise in those vids, i had trd superstrut suskit coilovers. The black car i'm catching at the end is another integra on yoko ao48 semi slicks and driven by someone who was a lot more experienced at that track, at that point i'd only been on that track for about 20 minutes, i drove it again the next day and found a ton of time over the whole track but dont have vids of that sadly. I think the 1998 jdm integra had 197 bhp, but from experience there power can vary a bit, some make more some less. Those were fun times and even the integra owners of which there were many at those events had to concede the ss3 was a very good match for the integra! praise indeed!!!

Yup the prelude was a 197 bhp version, a bb1 if i remember right which is one of the slower variants and i really ditched him , another friend has a jdm bb4 with lsd and its just slightly faster than the ss3 was stock, the bb4 prelude is a really nice car to drive and i much prefer it to the integra!

Didnt have any aftermarket ecu in those vids but after that i made a loom that meant i could use a 1zz-fe power-fc to control the beams as you dont get an off the shelf ecu for the beams, so this was a good cheap option that required very little wiring changes to work, i dont have the car or ecu anymore but have the loom still if any beams owners wanted to go down this route. The power-fc now lives on in a turbo charged gen 7 in ireland, so proof that the ecu itself didnt need to be modified.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 15, 2009 - 8:29 AM

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you don't get that little shake at 2000 rpm at a stand still? don't really feel it going down the road. its a balance issues/mount issue with the 2zz engine. of course you don't get a deadspot at 5000ish you're boosted. NA though, theres a slightly boggy spot where the low cams are running out steam and lift hasnt kicked in yet.

how can people just assume the results of the integra vs celica like that?
hasn't anyone seen the best motoring video where the 7gc does a test against ek9 dc2 dc5 and other?

if i remember correctly, the 7gc lost to both civic and integra


edit: found the link
these are all stock cars with professional drivers at the same level so you can't complain about driver or mods.
0-400m race
race part 1
race part 2

This post has been edited by Shigexile: Aug 16, 2009 - 5:22 PM

in a discussion about engines just how relevant is a video of some track focused hondas that weigh 80-100kg less than the non track focused celica's going round a track? pretty meaningless imo

btw i have assumed nothing, i have actually raced both my 2zz corolla and beams celica against dozens of type-r's both on and off track and strangely enough when all things are equal, ie, weight, tyres and suspension there similar in performance to the point of being identical.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 16, 2009 - 5:56 PM

uhh ya i totally agree edophus. The integra type r is a track ready car straight out of the factory. those celica's are not.

thanks for sharing those vids Shigexile. Ok guys finally found a vid of a SS-III vs integra type r vs mr2 g-limited with beams vs rivals at the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsAwP77056k...feature=related

a little disappointing at first, but ill explain later doing some research....

Type R has Aluminum block, lightweight front windshield, full stainless steel exhaust, no sound insulation, lighter battery, plastic headlights, optional A/C

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 25, 2017 - 6:04 AM

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I cant watch that here at work, but i'm guessing the integra wins right? again it really comes down to the fact that both the ss3 and mr2 with beams are well over 100kg heavier than the integra, niether toyota make any attempt at weight saving, where an integra uses no sound proofing, and lightweight glass, very often no aircon, the toyota's come fully loaded wtih air con, tons of soundproofing etc, have non track biased suspension and similar sized brakes that have more weight to deal with. Deal with those things, or type-r your toyota and its a different story I know there supposed to be rivals by some but really there not as toyota did not aim the celica at the integra knowing fine well that not everyone wants a noisy and harsh car.

actually just watched that now, i'm surprised by how little difference there is between the integra and the ss3 given the integra has at least a 110kg weight advantage! so just imagine what happens if you start removing weight from the celica, the integra has already lost most of the weight it can from the factory.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 17, 2009 - 11:33 AM

well i just looked at my only NA dyno sheet and it appears that there is a small dip in TQ at 5000 but HP is still climbing.

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oh nice find!
A translation that they were saying thats important is that Tsuchiya driving the mr2 says that "the dc2 is engineered for track racing (power curve and gear ratio) while toyota is engineered for the sporty road vehicle"
and what Edophus was saying about weight has a lot to do with the results as well.

Can you swap over the black top beams in to the celica? I know people will say if you have $$ everything is possible. Im asking if its a ton of work because I think a 6spd black top rwd beams would be awesome. Theres one on youtube that said it has 600bhp idk not sure if its true but i know they can hold turbo pretty well. Theres one w/ a 66 garrett or sumin I believe sorry Idk much about turbos. I just wanted to know if its a direct swap from the Altezza to the celica or if theres a lot more custom fabrication taking place cause about 4k for the 6spd tranny engine and front and rear assembly it sounds like a deal to me. Ill keep researching to see how to manage this.