I've been thinking really hard lately about doing a 4age 20V "blacktop" engine swap in my car(94' st). I'm really not sure if I wanna do it anymore. I say this because a friend of mine told me doing the swap is not worth it because yes, the "silvertop" comes 160 and the "blacktop" comes 165 but all that power will not be produced in our car cause its way heavier than the corolla it comes in(witch makes a lot of sense 2 me). So I just wanna know if anybody dynoed their car with one of these engines in their car. If so, how much whp does it produce in our cars. Even if nobody dynoed it, if u at least have an idea...it would be very helpful. Thanx guyz.

Quincy V.

ST = 165, BT = 175

ask coomer.

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Further to your friends comments the 20v blacktop engine in particular tends to make most of its power higher up in the rev range also from what I can see it also makes considerably less torque (119 Lbs-ft from what I can see correct me if I am wrong) which will really show up with the heavier car. The 3s-ge is propably a better choice (not sure on the availbility is the US) it has much more torque and more Hp.

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The silvertop is rated at 160(but the general concensus is that it was over-rated by Toyota), and the blacktop at 165. Both engines have VVT, and no VVT-i. That's another common misconception so I'm just clearing that up in advance.

Anyway, the silvertop will put down as much horsepower in a Celica as it does in a Corolla. A dyno doesn't take into account vehicle weight. So I'd search around for dyno numbers on Club4AG.com and Google and such...I haven't searched in forever but I think silvertops are making from 120-130whp.

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Okay, seriously, why does everyone think our cars are so heavy? ST Coupe = 2400 pounds. Yes, that's 200 pounds lighter than a Civic and lighter than a Corolla. Heck, the 1.6 might even make it slightly lighter.

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Depends on the Civic and the Corolla. A '92-'95 Civic VX weighs 2,094 lbs.

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and a 93-97 corolla weighs right on the 2300 lbs line, the ones earlier are close to 2100-2200 lbs

4age 20v was over-rated like Coomer said, if someone can dyno a stock 20v and prove me wrong, then i'll shut up. The blacktop handles vvt a lot better, but a silvertop is just as good. You can also put in the 4agze, which is the supercharged one, a lot better torque curve. You can also go 4age 16v (redtop or bluetop), oh yeah and the 4agze (supercharged) is also a 16v . Depends on what route you wanna take, a 3sge is not a bad idea, it's closer to the celica after all

This post has been edited by pure_dx: Apr 5, 2006 - 11:58 PM

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Okay, seriously, why does everyone think our cars are so heavy? ST Coupe = 2400 pounds. Yes, that's 200 pounds lighter than a Civic and lighter than a Corolla. Heck, the 1.6 might even make it slightly lighter.
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Yea, that 2400 lb was on my renewal notice list on car specs.

Although the silvertop has little support and low end power. A new EMS, to get rid of the IAC valve, and intake plenum to run full Open throttles will provide more HP.

Thats my nex project to run full ITB and I will provide dyno results if Coomer doesn't beat me to it.
At the moment im working on my daily driver aside from the celi which rattles like a can.

Yea, the dyno souds like a good idea. I would realy like 2 see how much the "silvertops" push out in our cars. I really wanna do a 3sge swap but I can't find any accept for the "Beams" witch I think is a really good engine but its 2 expensive(at least for me). So a 4age sounds the best for me. Another question is how much whp does the 16V 4age red and bluetops come with?

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IAC valve? Do you mean the AFM?


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Club4AG.com has a page with horsepower specs on it. I'd check there.

I think if you're going through all the trouble to pull the motor out, you may as well toss a 3sgte in there.

It's factory turboed, more displacement, and would probably involve the same if not a little less amount of work than any 4a engine swap would.

It's not an easy task to toss a 4a in to any celica and expect it to work, the general concensus on the boards is that since it's an "A" series engine, it will just bolt right in, which isn't exactly the truth. I know Coomer has one in his Celica, but, if I remember correctly, it was quite a battle to get it to work right. John (Myzneyes) also had the 4agze in his Celica, but again, it wasn't the easiest thing in the world to get working.

If i'm wrong, and one of you has swapped in a 4a and considered it 'easier' than an S series swap, please, let us know. As it stands right now, I still consider a 4ag(z)e swap in to an ST more difficult than any 3s swap.

Swapping a 4A-GE or 4A-GZE with a C52 into a AT200 is easier than swapping the 3S-GTE into the AT200, mechanically at least.

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No serious transmission / wiring issues? I see more 3s swaps than anything, it always seemed the 4a's & beams were among the tougher swaps, which is why very few step up to doing it.

dude, the rolla weighs more than a 6gc st

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With a 4A into an ST you can utilize your factory motor mounts, axels, and transmission. The only thing you need to work with is the wiring and a few other things like throttle cable and stuff (I don't have one, so I don't know EVERYTHING that needs to be reworked). With a 3S into an ST you need GT (or ST205) mounts, new transmission and new axels, along with the wiring. The only reason the 3S seems easier is because it has been done many times more than the 4A and Beams.