-recneps+Mar 16, 2005 - 4:15 AM

rofl..... seventh gen beating a 3sgte

250whp with what? 180 lbs of torque...... so the 7th gen weighs in at virtually the same weight but has the same hp and less torque....

sorry, but 7th gen would lose.... plus its ugly and poorer quality

This post has been edited by wind: Mar 16, 2005 - 12:46 AM

WOWZERS!!!!!!!!!!! this guy should be banned from 6gc. lol

His argument makes fine sense to me. Torque doesn't mean much if it's all located in the wrong place or if the driver cannot utilize the torque band. The 2ZZ may only make 130 or so ft lbs of torque, but if it can sustain it longer than a 3SGTE... it can out-accelerate a 3SGTE. That's not saying either engine is bad... but don't be quick to judge a pure horsepower engine if you don't know its potential.

So far on paper... 3SGTE swapped Celicas are very tough to drive fast from a stop. The 7th gen GTS is tough also... but it's not as hard as a 3SGTE swapped celica. Driver's excluded, I'd give it to the 3SGTE... but with only decently skilled drivers... an unexperienced driver with a 3SGTE Celica isn't gonna do too well...

I do agree that the 7th gens are fugly...

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Mar 16, 2005 - 1:27 AM

"Um isnt that stating weight in lbs?? and not torque?? thats what i could have swear that he meant..."


<sigh> torque is measured in ft/lbs. 177lb? What weight would he be talking about?

lol i thought he was talking the engine weight....

i have never came accross a 7th gen that was even close to keeping up with me.

the problem with fwd cars is that its hard to really race them at a drag strip without proper tires and drivers skill. put the two cars on a dyno and then you can really tell whats faster. a swaped celica with mods running at 15psi can put down about 235hp to the wheels. a GTS does about 160hp at the wheels with mods.

come on, art...who REALLY cares about a dyno queen...i dont care if the car can make 10000HP...if you cant use it, its usless. how much HP on the dyno does NOT tell you whos FASTER. just who has bragging rights with more HP;)
heres my advice.
dont swap the celica. if you dont wanna work on the car for 5 yrs, you dont want ANY kind of swap or "turbo kit"
you need a car thats got it all stock.(mr2, alltrac, ect.)

alright well first off - i dont have 10k to spend on this
i have somewhere near 5-8 though.
I cannot afford to continually be fixing the car - i mean the random sometime problems are normal and expected but, when i swap this engine in - i will change out almost everything that i can so that i do not have to worry about it in the future - i will also definatly tune the engine up - new gaskets new seals new plugs wires collaborations everything my mechanic and i can think of.

If i were to do that - would i still be looking at a car that would break down a lot?

its a stock turboe'd engine - its MADE to handle the turbo the internals are designed for it. I will keep the turbo right at the normal boost so as to evade any nasty enounters with hurting my engine because i set the boost too high.

Why i dont buy an MR2-
Well the 3s-gte that i put into the car will have somewhere around 40,000 to 60,000 miles - and when i retune it up it will be in VERY good shape. if i bought an MR2 with that it would have at least 140k on the engine and chassis.. NOT what im looking for, and thats even if the damned mr2's didnt cost so much..
can anyone tell me if mr2's are mid engine cars?? my father keeps saying they are and i see no indication whatsoever of this but then again - im a noob at this stuff..
another reason i dont buy an MR2 - because i L O V E the bodystyle of the 6gc celica..
i dont know why but it just looks entirely sexy to me, and i love how rare they are and the 3s-gte swap would be.. F. A. S. T.
plus the toyota brand is reliable - the engine would last me a LONG time definatly better than my acura now (its at 196,049 miles..) and its an 88!
keeps breaking down..

How much does torque help in a race?? any ideas on that??

Also - What if i looked into a Acura Integra - A 94-95 and put an h23 block in it and swapped an h22 head on top of it? would that be quick?

anyhow - thanks for all your advice - please keep giving it!
nobody
ps and if any of that is wrong please tell me.. i cant afford to make a mistake on this.. =)

also - my mechanic and i are very close - i call him all the time with problems and i work on cars with him... needless to say he really knows what he's doing, will do it for cheap, and is just a great guy - so if i have issues with the car.. he'd help in no problem.

This post has been edited by nObOdy: Mar 16, 2005 - 3:34 PM

-nObOdy+Mar 16, 2005 - 8:31 PM
This should be indication enough for you. >> Yes they're mid-engine...


Also, I've always thought that the "MR" in MR2 stood for Mid-engine, Rear drive. Could be wrong but it makes sense.

This post has been edited by 946thGenGT: Mar 16, 2005 - 7:08 PM

-nObOdy+Mar 16, 2005 - 1:31 PM


any of that sound wrong and infeasible?

MR2 - Midship Runabout 2-seater

not many turbo motors live 196,000+ miles without needing a major overhaul... and ESPECIALLY if they are modded. a turbo is supposed to be rebuilt every ~60,000 miles... turbo rebuilds cost around 500 + labor fees, and can total around 700 bucks on average if you send it out to a source like majestic turbo. only one car i know of has pushed severe HP numbers on an original motor, and as most people who do alot of 3sgte research know, im talking about hyde... and that motor is 1 in a million, ive never heard of any other 3sgte motor making it 200,000 miles under the conditions he puts that car though, his maintanence routine is borderline obsessive, and he knows how to keep that thing running (though i do think he deliborately killed it at the end of last season)

my point is "reliable" depends on who you are buying it from, and what they did to it... my 1997 Celica i purchased in 2001 had 54,000 miles on it when i purchased it from a dealership... within a year and a half i had to have the transmission rebuilt AND the motor rebuilt due to unrelated problems.

as for my "almightly 3sgte" in my MR2, i had to replace the turbo on my MR2 within 6 months of owning it when the previous owner showed me receipts of the turbo being rebuilt no more than 15k miles ago... the wastegate went bad on it and also i think the bearing was binding up. i also had to replace a cracked valve cover gasket, the speedgear broke in the transmission and i had to replace that, the oil drain plug gasket was leaking, and one of the bracket clasps for the shift linkage fell off as i was leaving a gas station to go up to school. i ended up driving 4 hours that day with only 1st, 3rd, and 5th gears, no reverse. and im just mentioning all the motor/trans related problem maintanence ive had to do, that doesnt include all the preventitive maintanence and improvements ive made on this car within the last year and a half ive owned it... and all this on a motor that was supposedly completely rebuilt 15k miles prior to me purchasing it (and i know for a fact all the dates and milage because i have all the receipts)... all im saying is the name "toyota" is only half the equasion to a reliable car


if you are just looking for something "quick" to beat your buddies cars and dont really have a specific purpose in mind besides driving it from A to B and dicking around on weekends... you are lining yourself up for way too much trouble trying to perform a swap... i will tell you and those who have done these swaps will also tell you, 75% of the fun is the build up process and getting dirty and doing it yourself, only 25% is driving it afterwards thats why so many people who have such radical cars usually dont keep them for very long... they will build them, drive them for a little while, and sell it or tear it down and start over.

Hrm... did you drive your car very hard?

so if i were to do the swap - fix all the mechanical parts that i could think of -
replace them with new (preventative maintanence if you will)
you dont think i could go 4 years without some kind of a major fix.
i would have to expect at least 500+ of some kind of work needing to be done on the car?
I drive my cars fast - but i keep them well.. if that makes sense
like ill redline it and race it around all day but every 3k sometimes before i change my oil - routinely run cleaners through the engine - replace sparks.plugs. tranny fluid. radiator fluid. whole bunches of stuff.. air filters......

Im not worried about a 1oo bucks every month or so for a fix - and i realize it is all a gamble ...but if i were to perform the 3s-gte your assuming that i would not be able to get away with such cheap repairs?

what i want to do is get my hands dirty this summer, and come fall time when i go back to school - i want it to be fine, normaly every weekend every other weekend i drive 400 miles to go back home (round trip..)

I wouldnt want to be continuously fixing things.. But my thought if i replace things with quality parts, dont overboost it. keep it well maintained that i may be able to have a reliable fast car that i love the looks of...

any ideas on that??

i autocross and once and a while drag race my car, however i ended up having to fix all these problems before i started racing, so no, these problems were not brought on by hard driving.

the problem is you cannot be 100% positive that you will be that reliable unless you tear it down and rebuild it all yourself by the book, the only way to guarantee that everything is done properly is to do it yourself with the proper manuals and parts, next best option being to get a warranty on anything anyone else does for you. the key here is 100%, myself included, people doing these projects hang themselves out to dry by taking shortcuts and not properly starting from scratch... buy something used, and assume its good because the person you purchased it from said it was "in great condition" and it looks all nice and shiny... i did this with my current CT20b turbo, and most people do it when they buy used clips and motors, they assume its good and throw it in and turn it on, most clip importers will only warranty an engine to start the first time, but once it starts the first time you are no longer under any coverage from that supplier, if a crank is bent or if valves are not seated correctly or something snaps off after some heavier driving conditions, your SOL... and at that point its no longer 100 dollars a month maintanence, you gotta get this thing fixed, and NOW if it is your only vehicle. most people come out okay, but you hear plenty of horror stories of things like this as well, it turns out to be a real crap shoot. so far ive gotten lucky on my CT20b, it seems to be working great, but im also planning on it possably failing, so im going to get my other turbo rebuilt and possably upgraded... all i can say is thank god this isnt my only car.

dont take this as me trying to persuade you against it, plenty of people have come out successful, and many people do have them running quite reliably, i just want to warn you and anyone else thinking about doing it that there is a real danger of getting yourself in over your head, just because everything adds up on paper to being something you can afford... theres alot of things you dont see originally that really add up and destroy your budget, just ask manny, who's stainless steel oil lines just cost him his arm, and i think they are calling back about his leg as well >>

well...as far as swapping an h22/h23 into a teg...its a pretty heavy engine for such a light car
you'll go fast in a straight line, but the car wont handle well

do you like the honda crx? You could do a swap on that and put a body kit on it. it can be fast and light and for 5-8k you could do a lot to it.

damn... now im worried about getting that loan to do a swap....I was almost convinced....thanx man glad i saw this...imma be more cautious see if there other options...

The 4th Gen Prelude Vtec is running in the mid-low 15's stock. With some nice I/H/E and drag radials maybe even high 14's. Or you could always turbo the prelude and tune it right, it would be faster than any 3s-gte Celica. 3sgte celicas i think run in the mid 14's, but not sure. Correct me if i'm wrong on this.

You can find a 4th gen Prelude Vtec anywhere from 6000-8000 depending on miles and condition.

I personnelly like the 5th gen Ludes, they are very nice looking and pretty quick. Running low 15's stock. And there is always a option for turbo.

This post has been edited by hs2g: Mar 18, 2005 - 9:50 PM

-nObOdy+Mar 17, 2005 - 9:47 PM

Thats a tall order for any used car thats 5+ years old, period... If you want to not worry about stuff going wrong- a swap is the LAST thing you want to do... get a lude or a teg thats been well taken care of, and leave it at that...

It seems as if i will not be performing the 3s-gte swap into a celica..
im really sad to say it though - I will do this swap down the road when i can have another car to actually drive and then my celica =)
Im going to try to stay away from a turbo for my first engine swap - and my mechanic and i are going to work with a 94-95 integra GSR drop a nice powerful engine in it - this way the issues i will have with it will be so minimal i wont have to worry about drving it hard or what not. im going to put the h23 vtec into it =) some serious power (200hps) plus that vtec!
well yea thats where im at right now but im not buying a car till summer so i should stop thinking about it..! lol my girlfriend complains that it is all i am talking about. cars. cars.!
well peace out guys.
nobody

ps
thank you all so much for your informative posts. they were very clarifying for me when i am about to embark on such a large endeavor for me, so again
thank you!

oh
and the honda crx?
a b s o l u t l y HIDEOUS!
but if anyone has any other ideas for cars.. feel free to share them =)


This post has been edited by nObOdy: Mar 19, 2005 - 3:57 PM

I think eaither way. Dont buy a car planning on swaping the engine. not a good idea, unless its a second car or you have delt with it before. Id suggest buying a 95 gsr and riding that for awhile doing littl mods and learning as you go.

The B18C1 itself is a very powerful engine. Just rebuild it and mod that sucker. You can get 200+WHP all motor. Now thats a powerful motor. The H23 is nice but I think the GSR has more potenial in the long run.

-hs2g+Mar 20, 2005 - 2:56 AM

the h23 is non VTEC

the H22A and the B18C are both very awesome engines...its hard to say which has more potential
I've seen an H22A that was bored and stroked to 2.6L...ran 14:1 compression and made over 280 hp at the wheels and like 220 tqu IIRC

EDIT
the H22A is 2.6L, 16:1 (estimated) compression, 260 hp and 200 tqu

I would also like to add that from what I hear...the h23 with h22 head isnt the greatest engine. the h23 bottom end isnt built the same as the h22 bottom end...its relatively time consuming and expensive to find JUST the h23 short block and h22 head by themselves...the little power gain from that extra 100 cc's isnt worth it IMO

bore and or stroke the h22 >> they make kits that you can take out to 2.4L if you want it that high

This post has been edited by tsiah: Mar 23, 2005 - 5:25 AM

-celicaboston1983+Mar 14, 2005 - 6:41 PM


did you perhaps try to slide the seat back?? >> it was no more cramped than a 6th gen celica...I've driven both...neither were that great
there's no comparison that i can give tho as far as the power of either...the 4th gen lude I drove had the F22 (SOHC non VTEC 2.2...) it was a base model.
it still had some balls tho...I sorta romped on it while I was pulling it in to change a wheel stud >> when I popped the hood I was very suprised that it was only the F22 and not the H23 (DOHC non VTEC 2.3)

This post has been edited by tsiah: Mar 23, 2005 - 5:51 AM